The middle east's most precious resource is oil - a.k.a. Blackwater. Let's connect the dots.

YOU MEAN YOUR GOING TO PAY ME $500-$1,000 BUCKS A DAY AND I GET TO SHOOT ANYONE I WANT? OH LORD THERE IS A GOD.

Blackwater = Results....whether you like them or not.

Primarily to NOTCHO and and EDFEENEY, should you still be out there, and to any others who may still be listening.  Just checking in from a few days of chasing bad guys in the cyber world.  Another story I can't talk too much about....  And JOLYKA, I'm adding a couple of your suggestions to my reading list.  

Anyway... Thanks for the support.  I have been called a Neanderthal, and I've been called a genius - but I must say this is the first time I've been called both in the same breath.   If I've sown Confusion, Disorder, and Attention to the viewpoints of the other party - whichever party that may be - then my work here is done.  

That, I think, is the greatest value of this type of discourse.  Hear what the other guy thinks, take everything with a grain of salt, be prepared to defend your position, and most importantly - realize that your position may not be totally correct and adjust fire accordingly.   As much as we'd like to believe, this is not a "black and white" world.   We can all learn from one another; and it takes spirited and informed discourse for ALL of us to make the world a better place.  

No matter our party, our nationality, race, sex, or religion - we all have common points of interest.  Hell, as much as I hate to admit it - I even have something in common with Cheney - we both like to hunt.  However, I don't kill anything I don't intend to eat (unless it's shooting at me - see earlier posts ;-)    

I'm rolling out of this discussion and go off to sow dissension elsewhere, with the goal of stimulating thoughtful interaction.  I'll leave readers and contributors with a favored quote from one of my favorite songwriters.... Kris Kristofferson and a song called "Beat The Devil".  Appropriate to this situation, I think.  

I can only hope the last line is not prophetic to the American people.....

"If you waste your time a-talkin' to the people who don't listen,

"To the things that you are sayin', who do you think's gonna hear.

"And if you should die explainin' how the things that they complain about,

"Are things they could be changin', who do you think's gonna care?"

There were other lonely singers in a world turned deaf and blind,

Who were crucified for what they tried to show.

And their voices have been scattered by the swirling winds of time.

'Cos the truth remains that no-one wants to know.

 This video does not clarify anything, it only muddies the issue even more. For example, we read in the report that this video, in Blackwater's opinion, should in fact exhonerate those involved.  Yeah, did you see the size of the hole in the car's driver side door?  If I am not mistaken, a mother and lawyer was in that seat- I am sure she looked manacing.  In combat things must move so quickly and the punishment for not acting and acting quickly, may be your own death.  I realize that, but I also realize that these MERCENARIES are well trained, experienced, and in love with warfare.  They also receive a healthy salary, far more than the average troop.  Let's not forget many of the incidents in which they have collided with our own troops!!!  They have drawn weapons, and even fired at US Marines!!  This is a fact.  These men have even beeb imprisoned by US troops in the past for their consistent, reckless, behavior and deep disrespect for human life.

Well I'd like to convey a few of my own thoughts here; 1) I can't believe how repubs or Rummy learned to privatize war. I never would have believed that war has become the domain of the private sector. 2) I believe this security of the State Dept and diplomats is a scam. We've learned that there probably gonna have to force State employees to go there. All toll there wll be around 250 to man that huge embassy there. Who knows how many diplomats are there at any given time. My guess is not many. But one thing you can bank on is very few of all those people will ever leave the Green Zone. So I think you have alot of cowboys with a whole lot of time on their hands which is trouble. Such as the BW guy who shot the Iraqi VP bodyguard in the Green Zone. Apparently he was drunk. 3) And this is the most important. You absolutly cannot have people such as this not have to abide by any law. Theres no oversite and theres no accountability. Whoever allowed that to happen should be taken out and waterboarded. Under these conditions there was never a doubt that it was gonna happen it was just a matter of when. 4) Every time these people screw up they automatically make it more dangerous on our troops. Set the WINNING HEARTS AND MINDS programs on its ear. Thereby reducing more and more support of our presence and mission in Iraq. 5) The problem has never been a need for private contractors. The real problem was Rummys new philosophy of a small fast-moving military. Remember him ignoring the advice of true warriors, Shinsheki, Powell etc who said,"use of overwhelming force". His military was way to small but he thought privitization would allow him to do it. He was totally wrong but refused to change his philosophy. They had to can him 4 yrs down the road so that they could allow more toops in theater hence the SURGE. What Im getting at is if the size of our military was substantial when would have very little need of PRIVATE CONTRACTORS. 6) My biggist personal gripe with contractors is theres way, way to many of them and they get paid way, way, way to much money which I feel is a big reason we don't get $h** for our Defence dollar. Bush is comin back every couple of mos now with his hand out and I know billion dollar contracts to BW and others is one of the many reasons why.

HEY NOTCHO, I agree with you. This is some of the most intelligent back and forth I've seen. Pretty heady stuff. The ones who blow me away are FAHO & COACHRHINO. The 1st half of their posts your thinking these 2 fit somewhere between Cro-Magnum and Neaderthal. Then at the flip of a switch they can become Einstein or Stephen Hawkins. They confuse the hell out of me. Im so used to when somebody starts out dumb it usually deteriorates from there and not become the rants of a genius. Good work you guys. Pretty stimulating.

The "Liberation" of Iraq, that the US screamed loud from rooftops can be seen in all its nakedness , when 17 people are killed [and not for the 1sdt time by contractors] with such carasse disregard for human is shown by these mercenaries, and they walk away scott-free.

This is occupation, what else will you call this, when The US is building its BIGGEST embassy in terms of size,and its Super-bases so big that you need buses to traverse them.

Americans need to wake up,  the 1st 9/11 was a wake up call, lets hope America's actions don't precipitate in another one.

faho - It's rather funny in a way because we agree with each other about so many things, that the vast majority of the discussion's mute - I agree about Rummy, Dick & Bush - the previous Tricky Dick, etc. The erosion or civil liberties and rights is horid. But - I highly recommend reading the Scahill book (believe that's how you spell his name, lent my copy out along with another must 'Imperial Life in the Emerald City'). When you read about the financing of Blackwater, who makes what and how they've even outsourced their people in the field (Americans being a little too expensive) to pick up a whole bunch of Chilean mercenaries who used to murder their fellow countrymen/women @ the behest of Augusto Pinochet (there's a good book about him & how the CIA overthrew the Allende government - you'd love it, the people in 43rd Admin are largely the SAME!!). I know an awful lot about combat and staying alive in adverse situations - kind of beside the point. When you actually read the story of what happened to the BW men, knives & forks delivery and how it ended so tragically because of failure to follow BW's protocol, I think you'd be surprised. Even though the company is now supposedly under the US Code of Military Conduct, ask what kind of ammunition they're shooting - not the same as our soldier & not under Geneva. War is what it is and even though we are fighting another unconventional one in a crummy place (I have been to the Middle East), there are issues in addition to torture where our nation has strayed from what's acceptable and why we have so few supporters internationally. Thanks for asking me to chime in - the Schahill book is amazing. I'm currently waiting for 'Curveball' about the discreted "intelligence" source about the mobile weapons labs & other WMDs that weren't. I also recommend the photo essay 'Whiskey Tango Foxtrot' by Ashley Gilbertson - a beautiful presentation of Iraq, although I use beautiful rather loosely. Thanks again and good luck.

These have been some of the best comments on any subject that I have ever seen. People with their **** together saying something that makes sense. The press, necessary as they are have become the judge and juries in most things we read about. They prejudge everything! We as readers have our minds made up for us well before the dust settles on any event. Shall we now just sit back and wait on the investigations to take place before we point our fingers at whomever the bad people are?

Blackwater is in Iraq to protect American interests because our State Department can't. They get paid extraordinarily high because their lives are on the line. Nobody supports rampant killing - but when you're fired upon from an unknown source in an unfriendly environment, your immediate and justifiable reaction in a war zone is self preservation - no matter the cost. Sometimes your actions are just plain brutal. That's inarguable. It's easy to sit over here on our fat asses and pass judgement on actions that occurred in an environment that will never be 'real' for any of us. Have you ever faced death? (If you want something to complain about, go after the cops who put 31 rounds into a 14 year old girl because she pointed a radio at them.) Nobody likes us in the Middle East. Get used to it. I'd rather we werent' there, BUT... The real "solution" to "the problem" is to insure the safety of the oil supply (unless you'd be OK with paying $8/gallon for gas) vis some kind of trumped up UN resolution - and then create "an alliance" with every single special interest group over there. Arm them to the teeth and let them get it sorted out among themselves. We did the same 230 years ago (we hung/murdered 'Tories'). It works!!!! Eventually, order arrives. What we might do is 'meddle' enough to present a strong argument to the populace that their woes are really the result of their 'oppressive religion' and turn them on the radical extremists. Hopefully, we'd see a 'reign of terror' for a few years, military rule for an interim period ~ and the eventual emergence of a democratic, secular government that was pragmatic in their views and not given to extreme religious bullshit (just like we went through not too long after Salem). Would there be carnage? You bet!!! Would it work in the best interests of the entire world? Short term... no! Long term. You bet!!! SO ~ back off of Blackwater. They're filling in for our diplomatically inept State Department with 'real world' actions that keep people who are trying to help - alive. If they *** up now and then... so be it. At least they, and our diplomats, are more likely to come home in one piece.

Sorry faho, I thought you were saying the incident should just be dropped.  I do understand the need for security contractors and certainly I think they should be able to defend themselves.

Jolyka - "why this is a private matter (getting paid 3xs as much as all the other GIs whove lost their lives - compared to Blackwater mercenaries - yeah, you chew on that for a moment."   I have chewed on that.  I have been a soldier (12 years worth), and I KNOW what little salary they make - as well as the sacrifices they make.  Blackwater fills the need created by our government - the need for people to fulfill the assigned mission with not enough military to suffice.  I don't like the need, but I'm not sure I'm ready for a draft to fill the gaps either.  

I've spent my whole life questioning authority - even when I've been an instrument of authority.  Yes, I've read a few hundred thousand books in my time - everything from Thoreau to Sun Tzu - and I irk restaurants/bars when I turn off the TV if FOX "news" ever intrudes on my space.   I get most of my news from the BBC and Reuters.  I think  Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld are the worst things to happen to our government since Nixon/Agnew/Haldeman/Erlichman.  But none of that changes or affect the situation on the ground.

I've been there, done that, and got the t-shirt and the scars.  I do know a bit on how combat works.   Does that make me any more qualified to set foreign policy?  No.  Does it give me a bit of perspective on tactics and self-defense, and the human cost of war?  Yes, it does.  And if a company (ANY company, anywhere, under any circumstances) doesn't have a responsibility to "keep their employees alive" - then that is no one I will ever work for!   When you have some experience to contribute, feel free to chime in again.  

I'm hurt!  Sorry you couldn't catch the sarcasm in "duly elected government", Suburbia.....nor catch my point that it is up to US to change it at the polls if we don't agree with our current policies (and no, I don't).  I'll try to be clearer next time when my tongue is firmly in cheek and teeth are gritting.

I don't think I'm any governments dream - nightmare perhaps.  I'm the guy who supports the Second Amendment AND legalized abortion.   I support Social Security AND social responsibility.   I like Toby Keith, AND I've been in kind attendance at over two dozen Grateful Dead shows around the world.  I have marched in civil rights demonstrations, AND I have marched in formation as a US Army soldier.   I've been shot at by the KKK and I've been shot at by the Republican Guard.   I am neither Democrat nor Republican.   I'm an American.   My vote can't be assumed by any party - I go with what's right for me, my family, my country, and the future of the earth - in no particular order.  

Do I want our government to do the right thing?  Absolutely!   Should we be in this mess in the first place?  Absolutely not! I feel we are only creating more terrorists - which feeds the administrations lust to destroy our civil rights in the name of "security" in a vicious circle of it's own making.   But regrettably, we ARE in this mess.....and to some extent stuck until we find an effective way out. We have so totally screwed the Iraqi people, we have to stabilize them somehow.  We have created an entirely new generation of terrorists...simply walking away won't make them lay down arms and join the brotherhood of man.  

Now that we are "in this mess", it's no longer simple how to extricate without creating even more problems for the Iraqis, the region, and for us.   Can GWB find an appropriate path?  Apparently not.   Who will?   Whomever we as a nation convince to do it, I suppose.   But we must be prepared for all eventualities, and realize there is no simple answer.   "Get out now", as much as I'd like my comrades-in-arms to be home safely in the arms of their loved ones - would bite us in the rear later. .  

Should the event in question be investigated? Yes, just as any police or military action is investigate.   Should this be done in the press?  Probably not.  The press, as valuable as they are to our democracy as the "Fourth Estate" as some call them, are not the judge and jury.   In the past decade however, they have often tried to assume that role - all for the sake of ratings.   Edward R. Murrow, David Brinkley, Woodward and Bernstein seem to have been totally superseded by Geraldo, FOX, and other tabloid types.   It's not a newsworthy story unless it's lurid and noisy.  The press should be an informer and a reviewer.  

  Yes, an investigation is in order - but it must be done professionally and in a non-biased manner.  

But from the viewpoint of someone who has been in similar situations (which I doubt either Seattle or Suburbia has ever encountered) - when someone is firing at you with automatic weapons and high explosives, you don't stop to call Condi for advice - you start putting a lot of rounds downrange at the people who are trying to kill you.  That's the only way you can hope to ever again see your wife, husband, kids, GF/BF, parents, friends, or your country.  

Everyone says - "I support the troops, but don't support the war".  That's fine - that's great.  We are SUPPOSED to question our governments policies - that's what keeps us free in our hearts.  But the troops keep us free in the physical world,  Blackwater and the other contractors in country, while not enlisted or commissioned in our armed forces (but almost all come from that background and training)- are still our troops.  Yes, they are a corporate entity that wants to make a profit, but the people on the ground are men and women just like us - who are putting their lives on the line every day.  They deserve the same right to self defense as someone in uniform.

If they screwed the pooch - let them pay.   But don't second guess them from the comfort of an air-conditioned office in suburbia 12000 miles away.    This is not an Abu Ghraib - "let's see how much fun we can have with the guys in chains" situation.  Nor does it seem to be a My Lai situation - "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out".  Excessive force may or may not have been used, but everything points me toward a self-defense situation based on standard ambush response tactics and training.  

But we could play this game for the rest of our live.  Let the truth come out.  And the truth shall set us free.  

Blackwater - in particularly the people on this mission (delivering something for food service, like knives and forks) did NOT maintain the proper amount of people in the car to even defend themselves in the first place, but went into an unfamiliar AREA without maps and unfortunately ended up dead. Instead of trying to push the blame onto some place where it doesn't belong - why don't you question  FIRSTLY, why this is a private matter (getting paid 3xs as much as all the other GIs whove lost their lives - compared to Blackwater mercenaries - yeah, you chew on that for a moment. But more so, I think the blame is square on the early mercenary roles and what standards BLACKWATER themselves maintained on keeping their own employees ALIVE -  read a book! Watch the news - go to the AP, Reuters or another newsite before spouting more FOX/Cheney propaganda like you even know what you're talking about!

Does this video show anything?  If so, I don't get it.  The only thing I see is someone from far away hearing a battle and filming it after it was over.  In a world where it seems like EVERYTHING is videotaped, I find it hard to believe that this video is really the one that we should be seeing.  

As for faho's comment about "let people do the job ... we are paying them to do" ...  you must be our duly elected government's idea of a dream.  Certainly, investigating this incident and holding accountable whoever was responsible, whoever it is,  is not too much to ask. No one should be above the law.

Well, Seattle.  I think it was clear from the article that the video was not released by Blackwater. It was released by the Iraqi government - the same ones who are currently calling for BW's heads on a platter.   I also don't recall a BW statement about "do what is right for America".  This was a case of "do what's right to stay alive".    Do you recall the incident on the Fallulah bridge a couple of years ago?  Blackwater personnel ambushed (with the apparent assistance of local Iraqi security forces) - killed, burned, mutilated, hung from bridge girders and then their bodies drug through town?   Remember?   I bet every BW contractor in country remembers.   And say to themselves every day - "Never again".    In a deadly environment, deadly force is needed for self-defense.   The politics of whether or not we should be there are irrelevant when you are being shot at.   The only proper action is to respond with everything at your command to save your life and the lives of your comrades.  

Blackwater didn't get themselves into this mess...our duly elected government got them into it.   It's up to us to make changes at the polls.   In the meantime, let people do the job - that whether we personally like it or not - we are paying them to do.  

I would be willing to be the the top brass at Blackwater somehow manufactured this video in an attempt to help extricate themselves from the mess they have gotten themselves into. Hopefully, nobody will be naive enough to believe they "did nothing wrong" and were only trying to "do what is right for America". Blackwater, and other certain entities in Iraq, are NOT doing what is right for America any longer.