Two Americas: The Death Gap

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

seti2008 — Wed, 14 May 2008 00:35:26 GMT

Why the rates are so different is interesting and should be studied further. However, I'm going to throw a wrench in the study and say that college grads and non-college grads have different attitudes concerning health and health care. Among my relatives I am one of a few high school grads and the only college grad--three master's degrees. I'm also the only one who goes for yearly physicals and dental exams. Money and health insurance does not account for the difference. Among those of us who have health insurance, I'm the only one who is vigilant about my health; even if I have to spend the last of what's in my bank account, I'll have my medical exams done. I have a cousin who has been having severe abdominal pain and black to bloody stools for about five months now. He is a city employee and has been for thirty years. He refuses to go to the doctor. From my experiences, depression rates are undervalued in this society and studies are not designed well, especially those that try to capture the attitudes of African Americans. Definitions vary culturally and researchers fail to grasp that. People who will simply tell you where to get off to protect their self-esteem, for instance, aren't displaying high self-esteem. Engaging in risky behavior isn't just criminal, it's a sign of depression and a devaluation of life. The waistlines of many black women should be a clue that their are eating disorder issues, even though the medical establishment denies that black women are at high risk for eating disorders. I shared that information with a group of black women recently, and we all had a good laugh. These scientific studies are so flawed. Researchers need to think about the fact that people in various parts of the population sometimes present problems differently. For instance, a man with an eating disorder may not present in the same way that a woman with one does. Recently, many researchers dismissed the idea that the Tuskegee experts play a role in why African American are so leery of the medical establishment. The argument was that if few have heard of the experiment, it couldn't possibly be a cause. The problem with that logic is this: things sometimes get embedded into a culture. I had heard of the experiment, although some of my cousins hadn't. But I had heard of it because I asked my mother, years ago, why she didn't trust doctors, and that experiment was one reason she gave. She didn't take us to the doctor, either, unless the law required it, i.e. vaccinations for school. The habit of avoiding doctors is cultural. The Tuskegee experiments are probably one cause, although indirectly so.

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

Bh1158 — Wed, 14 May 2008 00:43:50 GMT

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

acrees4 — Wed, 14 May 2008 01:12:26 GMT

I thought you guys were secular humanists. Survival of the fittest. Remember?

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

wildlifeusa — Wed, 14 May 2008 01:41:18 GMT

This country has become a 3rd world country! the rich can get care, the poor can't, just like a 3rd world country!

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

HonkyScott — Wed, 14 May 2008 01:54:14 GMT

wildlifeusa, u r an idiot! stop crying and pay your insurance rates - this is not a free world - you have to work to be able to afford care. The lower end democratsa nd blacks that don't work don't get care - and you can get care at most public hospitals anyway and low end people know this and that is why they don't pay for health care. Tax rates will skyrocket with universal healthcare plan the Democrats want -

France has universal healthcare and they pay about 49% taxes.

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

rodrigo69 — Wed, 14 May 2008 01:59:36 GMT

This same gap exists globally. USA is the well educated, the rich..the conservative.

The nations that are developing are the "current" middle class.....thus our struggle with terror, oil, proliferation, disease, hunger, religious freedom.

Democracy works, man must trade with one another.

You don't kill who you trade with. I hope the rest of the world can figure that out.

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

goel.tx@gmail.com — Wed, 14 May 2008 02:00:29 GMT

This statistic appears to confirm that the present economic-political system our nation has adopted is based on lies and deceipt, and embodies a self-destructive, dehumanizing ideology. Please tell me why such facts are not a damning condemnation of our trickle-down market economy and our public education efforts!

If such a story does not provide the spark that awakens us to the dire economic plight of a majority of our citizens, then I do not know what will.

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

revjmike — Wed, 14 May 2008 02:03:38 GMT

HonkyScott, your ignorance is only slightly greater than your ego.

It is obvious you have been quite lucky not to have been in need in the past.

I suggest you walk in front of a bus the day after your insurance expires because it is now $10,000 per month and you couldn't afford it anymore. Then see that WONDERFUL service you get in the ER, until they dismiss you still unable to breathe on your own.

If we can afford to share the cost of police and fire protection, we can afford to share the cost of health care.

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

goel.tx@gmail.com — Wed, 14 May 2008 02:08:22 GMT

Two aspects that may not be so evident.

For one, the direct cost of the lacking health care and lifespan discrepancies discovered in this report are borne by all of us, whether we choose to recognize it or not. It is in our taxes and our health insurance premiums and deductables.

Secondly, there is a massive indirect cost to the colossal early loss of life, in terms of lost productivity, which includes both private and public economic contributions. Fairly, you have to subtract the reduced government benefits claims from this.

My guess is the reflex will be to deny the validity of this study and systematically ignore the highly troubling issues brought to the forefront here.

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

dzynrbob — Wed, 14 May 2008 02:10:56 GMT

Let's state a few obvious facts that this story conveniently ignores. Less educated people are more likely to abuse tobacco, alcohol, and cheap drugs such as meth. The cigarette factor alone could easily make up the difference in death rates. Successful people rarely have time to sit around drinking Bud and smoking Marlboros. They're usually doing something like working or vacationing in smoke free environments. Meanwhile, good old American white trash, puffs away on his smokes, and guzzles that brew from the Mississippi River and whines about the inequity of it all. Wake up folks. It doen't take money to live a healthy lifestyle. That's why poor old farmers usually live to be 100.

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

OBWan — Wed, 14 May 2008 02:12:27 GMT

Compassion is not weakness, and concern for the unfortunate is not socialism.

It was once said that the moral test of government is how that government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; and those who are in the shadows of life, the sick, the needy and the handicapped.

Hubert H. Humphrey

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

martymoose — Wed, 14 May 2008 02:20:57 GMT

As others have said earlier, the big difference is lifestyle choices. Less educated people choose lifestyles that are unhealthy. Simple Answer......

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

wildlifeusa — Wed, 14 May 2008 02:28:11 GMT

honkscott. You are so ignorant!! I am french and I can tell you that all our taxes do not go to pay health care, just a small part of our taxes do! Our taxes also pay for our infrastructures. Our roads in europe are maintained and our bridges won't collapse! our taxes also pay for education. everyone in France is untitle to get a college education, this is why our people are way more intellectuels than yours. 60% of university students in this country are foreigners! So before you make a fool of yourself, get a passeport or check your facts! If you have not understood that in a true democracy government has to serve the people then your an idiot. Good education for all, health care for all, good infrastructures, is what makes a healthy nation!!

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

liberalandproudofit — Wed, 14 May 2008 02:31:43 GMT

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

Sean2829 — Wed, 14 May 2008 02:46:58 GMT

I am tempted like many to think a single payer may help solve some of the problems of medical care availablity but I fear this would be like giving the keys of the castle to a spend thrift uncle. Consider Medicare which is available to all over 65 no matter their economic status. You'd expect that the money spent by Medicare would be greatest where the elderly poor are concentrated. Instead you find that the cost per recipient is highest in Boca Raton, FL, one of the most affluent communnities in the country. It is twice as high there than in most inner cities. Also consider that primary care physicians, the ones most likely to help the patiients with preventative care, are compensated at such a rate, they are barely able to make a living in private practice while hospital workers are paid extremely generous salaries to provide heroic care to individuals near the end of life. Our health care system is a mess but I see a government with a system that pays handsomely for procedures regardless of outcomes. Insurance companies unfortunately seem to just follow the formulas estabilished by the government. The medical system has figured out where the money is and they know what games need to be played to maximize revenue. Meantime, more people are priced out of the medical market. The monster that devouring the federal budget is a Frankenstein of its own making. The death gap may just represent the wealthy's ability to buy primary care at its own expense where the poor only get the expensive heroic care that is usually too little, too late.

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

ktj9139 — Wed, 14 May 2008 02:55:16 GMT

Wildlifeusa - You little frog pile of scat. Thanks for referencing the WI tragedy, that'll help. Everyone in Frogland is untitled? Is it just the Brits that use titles? Oh, i'm sorry, you meant entitled. I get it now. Intellectuels? your an idiot? Based on your post, i'm assuming "you're" in for an early exit. Good riddance.

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

agee — Wed, 14 May 2008 03:21:24 GMT

What you don't state is just what those death rates are in cuntries that do not exhibit the gap. It goes to show just how we distrust media -- but not knowing that number, I cannot help but presume that the only reason you don't show that number is that it will not be favorable compared to the States, and would therefore detract from the effectiveness of your story.

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

John Harrington — Wed, 14 May 2008 03:57:22 GMT

"Now, I been lookin for a job, but its hard to find

Down here its just winners and losers and dont

Get caught on the wrong side of that line"

Springsteen had it right. Getting caught on the wrong side of that line is now more dangerous than ever.

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

Chris Paris — Wed, 14 May 2008 04:17:28 GMT

This story was junk journalism at its worst. The only thing that it lacked was an exclamation point after every sentence. There seems to be no difference between the supermarket tabloids and the so called mainstream media, with everything being "The Latest Bad News".

Did you really expect people that have earned more money in their life long labor to NOT spend some of it on maintaining their health?

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

wildlifeusa — Wed, 14 May 2008 05:27:24 GMT

lmi-imt@servicecanada.gc.ca

And you ,you forget who helped you gain your independence from the british and like most american morons you are ignorant of the fact that the french have been fighting in Afghanistan along american troops for the past 5 years! The french have been fighting terrorism for years, way before 9/11 and still are in Afghanistan. French troops had the opportunity to shoot Ben Laden twice but your command said Don't shoot. How embarrassing if the French had killed Ben Laden after all the bashing the right wing did on them! You moron, check your facts before attacking your allies!

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

wildlifeusa — Wed, 14 May 2008 05:28:38 GMT

By the way, they were was smarter for not getting involved in the iraq war! They knew what would be coming! You just get what you deserve for your arrogance!

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

missebiz — Wed, 14 May 2008 06:58:45 GMT

Great article. I live in St. Louis where the poverty and segregation is a fact of life. We have kids having babies and so the ignorance of how to properly care for yourself let a lone a baby is perpetuating proper nutrition and child rearing. Hear Hear to the countries that have Universal Health Care and other Social Services available. All that money that goes to the cluster F#!CK in Iraq could have been spent much wiser.

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

mjkittredge — Wed, 14 May 2008 07:31:55 GMT

The minimum wage needs to go up even more than is planned. 10 to 15 dollars per hour should be minimum wage today, considering how much rent and food and gas cost (don't forget heating, car repairs/maintenence, car insurance, ect). $5 an hour is absolutely despicable. The last time the minimum wage went up was in, what, 1993? Republican controlled House of Representatives and Senate were to blame, poor people are not their concern at all, corporations profit is.

Other than the minimum wage, there needs to be more low cost or free job training so people can get a foothold on the middle class.

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

THE RAVEN — Wed, 14 May 2008 11:39:08 GMT

Seti2008--What color are you?

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

Crush — Wed, 14 May 2008 15:02:27 GMT

In the end, it all comes down to money in the United States of America. M-O-N-E-Y.

Until we open our eyes and break the death-grip of money over our government...there will be no end to injustice in this nation.

"The rich and the well-born have learned how to dance with the dirty dancers. These dirty dancers have created in Washington, DC and in every capitol city in America, a government of the money, by the money and for the money, and this circumstance will soon deprive us all of the blessings of liberty." -- John Jay Hooker

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

JEnInNY — Wed, 14 May 2008 15:12:40 GMT

The US government would like for US citizens to be more self-sufficient, so they create their social programs in aspects that try to foster for further independence. If you ask me, their issue is that they treat adults like children, as though adults will learn the same way as children. Interesting analogy that runs off topic slightly:

I read an article where the author was complaining about American Idol. How sick he is of it, basically whining that his "job" of doing nothing but watching TV ain't all it's cracked up to be. But he pointed out how repetitive it's gotten. How the formula is obvious and he doesn't feel like the voters actually choose the next idol. They do - but are heavily influenced by comments from the judges. The point I'm making here is that you can't keep applying the same formula, then wonder why all the sudden it won't work. Some (most?) people are just contrary - they realize what you want them to do and stubbornly refuse to do it (Hi! My name's Jen!! But at least I'm pleasantly contrary).

Designing social programs that work best when you do things the way the government wants you to might sound ingenious, but it truly isn't. There's just far too many people in the US that "disobey the rules" just to see what would happen - heck, that's our founding fathers in a nutshell! Obviously the design is flawed and needs updating. What troubles America is it's laziness. The design will constantly need updating due to evolution in general, just because of the way human beings are. If we're a bunch of lazy idiots about it (set it and forget it!!) then eventually it won't work anymore. Even the most malleable and workable systems break down - which is why easily interchangable parts is something we realize is helpful. Our entire government needs a refurbish, not just health care. These days, the point of becoming a politician is to get a cush job with easy access to cash, and the ability to help all your friends by funding pet projects. I think that in and of itself has to change. If you're looking for that, please head to the Private Sector. There's probably open CEO positions and such you could fill and likely have easier access to that money - ontop of practically being a dictator. The government has enough problems and maybe it's time to stop distracting from them by jingling your shiny keys....

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

11th hour — Wed, 14 May 2008 15:32:21 GMT

So what. People are quick to point their finger at well educated, wealthy, and healthy individuals. In most cases we have worked hard for what we've earned. We deserve our money and ther life style it affords us. If you want to live in a socialist state go to Cuba or Venezuala. Quit your crying and go to school and get an eduaction like I did.

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

MPBurton155 — Wed, 14 May 2008 15:46:37 GMT

I would hate to say this but honestly it's called natural selection. Think of it from a scientific perspective.

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

mcio5 — Wed, 14 May 2008 15:58:35 GMT

This article is pointless and states the obvious. Thanks for wasting my time. First off, education and wealth usually have a direct correlation. Wealthy people will be more capable to spend money on there health and medical expenses. Add to that the everyday purchases of food. Eating healthy is expensive.

Moreover, uneducated people are more likely to be involved with dangerous activities such as gangs and drug dealing. I live in Detroit...and it is generally not college grads getting shot to death at 3 in the morning. That being the extreme, there are major lifestyles differences and choices between the two groups that easily explain the difference.

In response to the increases since the early 90's, it is a clear trend that a high school diploma just doesn't get you anywhere anymore. Does this study include those who died while in service? Again, the bulk of the military only has high school diplomas.

The numbers shouldn't be equal because the two groups in comparison are not homogeneous!

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

ayuda — Wed, 14 May 2008 16:11:05 GMT

One important distinction that needs to be made here is education level vs. intelligence. The message I got as a kid was "school makes you smart". This is simply not true. Intelligence level is like any other ability you are born with.

The more intelligent you are, the better choices you will make and therefore will tend to achieve more success in life, financially and otherwise. Its not fair, but its a fact of life.

Having said that, this article makes more sense when you replace the phrases "less educated" etc with "less intelligent". Its not surprising that less intelligent people would die younger due to poor choices in lifestyle.

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

millerm84 — Wed, 14 May 2008 16:21:07 GMT

OK MPBurton155 so that means that people like me, who have completed college education work 40 hours a week or more (for an IT company not McDonald's mind you), pay rent, make car payments, stay out of trouble, and keep drug free, but can't afford health insurance and still eat, are just scientifically better off being dead? Look cancer is genetic and people with cancer genes have scientifically been selected to die sooner then those with out them, but in society people have said lets cure cancer. Money and social class on the other hand are man made inventions and not subject to natural selection. Man has made the problem of haves and have-nots in the health care system and man needs to fix his own problems. So the next time you're feeling honest about the current health care system just keep in mind not every one that doesn't have health insurance is unemployed and being upper middle class or wealthy doesn't give you any more right you be alive, but does seem to make great candidates for jackaa$es.

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

THE RAVEN — Wed, 14 May 2008 16:58:56 GMT

I would like to know why my comments are not posted? They were not ABUSIVE!

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

breakoutofthebox — Wed, 14 May 2008 17:17:56 GMT

Let me add another parameter to the thinking in this article. Is it not possible that a huge reason for the disparity of health care, which is being posed along the lines of financial prosperity, and education could also be along the lines of diposal of the number of opinions sought? What isn't measured on a piece of paper and a very sorely lacking piece of information is how many doctors did each patient see. It is assumed that becasue the poor are poor, they didn't get medical attention. It is in fact, my observation that this is completely untrue. I've seen many of my lesser financially well of friends and non-college educated friends make lots of trips to the doctor. The difference between us is this: I'm college educated, what that has taught me is to QUESTION information and sources. When a doctor glibly prescribes me medicine that I don't need, I'm the first to reject his advice. I have sought second and third opinions before blindly accepting the handouts from the doctor's office. Richer families also tend to teach questioning any advice "freely" given, becuase in the end, there is a hidden cost somewhere.

I have been diagnosed as "merely depressed" when in fact, I had a hormone deficiency which was corrected through diet, exercixe and natural alternatives. Had I accepted the depression prescription, it is likely that I would be addicted to it, possibly suicidal, and of course the harm to my liver, heart and lungs would be greater.

My best friend accepts her doctors words, because she has no other alternative. She can't afford to see other doctors for second opinions, and she is prescribed more and more pills on a daily basis, which she accepts because she was never taught to find the source of the information first, to read up on the entire truth of the subject, nor to get out and educate herself about her own body.

It is my belief that this scenario is far more likely than the oversimplification of fincance and education vs poor and uneducated.

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

Silvanus — Wed, 14 May 2008 19:28:02 GMT

It seems to me that a fact largely ignored in this article is that people with less education generally have more dangerous jobs - farm laborer, truckdriver, dock loader, construction work, police work, fire fighting, military service, railroad worker, heavy manufacturing and the like. Working in these environments with heavy machinery results in industrial accidents all the ime. Whereas college educated people mostly work in offices or in labor management, where the most common injury is a paper cut. I would bet that most deaths between 25 and 65 are due to a combination of accidents and crime, and people with lower levels of education are often forced to live and work in environments with higher concentrations of both. So until that factor is included in the analysis, this article is not worth much.

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

chaos39 — Wed, 14 May 2008 19:37:13 GMT

I give up. It is no longer possible to have civilized discourse, so profoundly stupid have we permitted ourselves to become. Everything descends into ad hominem attacks, retreat into sloganeering, sound bites, and polarized shouting across a chasm of mutual intolerance.

Racism, fear, and fifty years of offcial disdain for critical thinking as the indelible mark of an educated person, have consipired to make political imbeciles of most of the population.

The barrier to discourse is simple, and obscene in its efficacy. First, deny the populace the means to learn the skills required for critical thinking. Then, flood the environment with soundbites in a manner designed to elicit Pavlovian responses in the hearer. Finally, make it easy by means of visible or audible badges, to identify opponents and supporters.

if I refuse to listen, I cannot be convinced. If I insist on misusing words, then they mean what I say they mean: I am not a racist I, just don't like black people. You are a communist because you voted for John Kerry. I am a murderer because I support the right to abortion. You are a fascist because you believe in law enforcement. I am a disgusting liberal because my bumper sticker says, "Impeach Bush". You are a despicable conservative because you fly a flag on national holidays.

The problems facing us collectively are not soluble this way. And they will not be solved by some fantasy fiat wherein government either 'withers away' or becomes empowered to impose solutions by force, moral, electoral or otherwise. As long as there are persons who are poorer, less intelligent, less able, less advantaged, dealing with their needs will be a part of political life forever. Social Darwinism on the other hand, implies that poor people can just fail to adapt, and (I presume, because there is no real alternative) die and get out of the way.

This is only meaningful if there is an absolute and impermeable barrier between the classes. It overlooks completely the facts. While in present day USA the potential upward social mobility is fat less than it was at any time in the 20th Century, the DOWNWARD mobility potential is very high. Each of you insisting that we leave our inferiors behind to die overlooks the very real possiblitly that an event wholly outside your control will shift you into the camp of the condemned, from ant to grasshopper, from have to had.

We can and should talk about solving our problems. We cannot do so until we agree on a common language (i.e. Hillary does not equal communist, Bush does not equal Hitler, soclialist does not mean bad, and capitalist does not mean good, and so on ad infinitum), and on some application of the rules of logic and rigor of method (scientific or other) to arrive at some possible conclusions.

Oh, yeah, and stop calling me names, you hillbilly redneck fascist ape.

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

Bill85 — Wed, 14 May 2008 21:31:35 GMT

Maybe the difference is a little thing we used to refer to as delayed gratification, or now call emotional intelligence.

The same ability to practice self-denial in order to obtain or reach a goal enables one to obtain an education or career is also the same ability that enables a person to practice a healthy lifestyle(diet and exercise).

Then again, there is the little thing with respect to political correctness in which we have allowed unhealthy lifestyles or behavior to obtain minority status.

Yea, I know-you're in your situation because you are a victim-race, creed, color or sexual orientation.

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

maniac — Wed, 14 May 2008 23:01:35 GMT

To Chaos,

Why is you so mad? I's gonna report you along wit my cousin Zeke and my other cousin Malachi for abuse. Them is big words and what you tryin to say? Efficacy me? No F-in cussin' you!

Hillbillies for Hillary!

Yeeeehaw!!!

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

DodgerFan — Wed, 14 May 2008 23:01:41 GMT

Silvanus, the socio-economic disparity in 25-64 death rates occurs for all causes of death, not just accidents and crime. The Newsweek article provides a link to the research article, see Tables 2 and 3. These tables break down the death rate of the 25-64 group by cause of death. The death rates for all causes of death, cancer, heart attacks, accidents, etc. are higher for the less educated. It seems reasonable to conclude that the higher overall death rate among the less educated is not solely due to accidents and crime. It seems possible that more effective health education and medical intervention among lower income groups may decrease the disparity in death rates between the two cohorts.

Should our society take steps to educate the poor to make better health choices (quit smoking, exercise, eat better, etc.) and provide better access to health care? I will leave that for others to debate.

re: Two Americas: The Death Gap

Kazul9 — Thu, 05 Jun 2008 01:35:52 GMT

Thanks for the information on education affecting how long we have to live.

We recently wrote an article (http://brainblogger.com/2008/06/01/only-the-rich-get-old/">http://brainblogger.com/2008/06/01/only-the-rich-get-old/) on how going to college may help you live longer on Brain Blogger (http://brainblogger.com/). With the current economy, most families end up having to choose between sending their children to college or saving up for retirement, and according to experts, retirement wins out. With recent information showing that a college education might raise life expectancy, maybe families should reconsider their decision.

We would like to read your comments on our article. Thank you.

Sincerely,

Kelly