Flagship Studios Ceo Bill Roper's Hellgate: London caricature

In Part I of our four-part Q&A with Flagship Studios CEO Bill Roper, conducted at the January Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, we discussed the premise for the developer's first title, Hellgate: London, and its extensive plans for the use of randomly created content throughout the game. Parts II-IV come from a June phone conversation we had with Roper that took place after some grumbling began to brew as a result of Flagship's announcement of a two-tiered system for Hellgate, in which people who paid the "Elite" $9.95 monthly subscription fee would get not only regular content updates, but also additional character slots, extra item storage, visual distinctiveness from non-subscribers, and more.

Having long been curious about the potential of subscription-based online games like Phantasy Star Online whose structure deviates from that of traditional large-scale massively multiplayer online games, we decided to reconnect with Roper to discuss Hellgate's creative and financial model, which we think, should it become successful, will be one of the most influential developments in the industry in recent years.  In today's installment, Roper clears the air about Flagship's two-tiered system and explains why he believes non-subscribers will still get a great experience when Hellgate ships next month.

We last spoke in January. Give me an update on where things are with the game.

Sure. We actually, just yesterday, started our friends and family alpha, so we sent out about our first hundred invitations to people that are actually friends and family or people that we've done a lot of beta testing with over the years. It's kind of the first generalized acid test of the game: our downloader, our installer; the whole shebang. Now we are just working on finishing up a few things, a lot of polish, balance, tweaking; you know, making sure things work 'cause we are both single-player and then the multiplayer. So we've been content locked for quite a while and we're definitely on that push towards release.

There's been a lot of discussion online about the business model of the game. Going back to the genesis of Hellgate: London, at what point did you know that you wanted to go with a sort of hybrid model: a base game that would have standard PC game retail pricing, and then an optional premium subscription model on top of it as well?

We've actually, since the beginning, known that we wanted to do a tiered format. It was very, very important for us to be able to come up with a way to actually provide even more of an experience than we did with Diablo 2, with Hellgate: London. Basically, we noticed people had a lot of expectations from the team because of what we did with the Diablo series. Part of that was the ability to when they got the game, having that single-player experience and then being able to take that and go online and have that experience for free. I wanted to make sure we had that because that was the base-level expectation of our fans. That's what they got from Diablo 2. We wanted to make sure that we could actually provide more than that. So even at the very beginning we wanted to make sure that our standard players were gonna go online, get that experience and then get a lot more. Be able to do things like join guilds and have, you know, different community things; things that we never actually were able to do in Diablo 2.

But we also knew that we needed to be able to evolve with the online expectations of players and be able to have a methodology to do ongoing content. That's something that we used to get a lot of requests for with Diablo 2. People were saying, "We're playing the game. We really love it." But they had to wait about a year for the first expansion and there was really never any other content upgrades, except there was one big patch that took another year and a half or two years to come out. We got so many requests, "We want more stuff, we want more characters; more areas; more monsters," on and on and on. All the things that really have become very expected and standard of an online RPG.

We wanted to be able to have that same dedication to the continuation of Hellgate: London that our fans do. And the way that we were gonna be able to make that happen was by being able to have a business model that would support a constant development team for the creation of ongoing content, that continuing content. So we knew from the beginning that we were to have to have a way for that to work, and that is what led us to then having a tiered experience. Basically, the out-of-the-box experience, which is actually being created to over-deliver, Diablo 2-plus for people that played D2, but then also having a continuing, ongoing content model that was supported by subscriptions.

So once you decided to go with tiers, there's sort of--and I'm probably gonna get the number wrong--it seems that there's two parts to the second tier which I guess you're calling Elite--

You know, just to interrupt--we're not really calling it Elite. [Laughs.] That was kind of a dev name that just--when we talked to [Games For Windows magazine], we threw it out there. We were throwing out joking names for stuff and I think unfortunately, that ended up having a really bad connotation with people. They said, "Oh, so either I'm Elite or I'm nothing," and it really isn't that way. I think we were trying to come up with something that just kind of sounded gamer-y and cool. It really just breaks down to your standard out-of-the-box experience and then whether you're a subscriber or not.

Elite put bad connotations in people's heads that are very misleading. It makes it sound like what you're getting with your game box purchase is not good when actually what you're getting with your game box purchase is pretty awesome. So that kind of threw us for a loop. We didn't really expect that reaction that we got from people and I think it kind of diminished the message of what it was that you got by buying the game and what you got by getting to go online and play for free. So, sorry; I just wanted to jump in there because the Elite thing came up and I just wanted to set that straight. I'm sorry to interrupt.

No, no problem at all. Interrupt away. Now, is there a new name in place or is that still TBD?

No. No. We haven't--yeah, I mean, maybe. If we come up some name for it, we might. The best way to really think about it is that when you buy the box you're getting the standalone single-player game. You can also then go online, be playing our client server on our servers. We're hosting you. It's for free having that same experience online with your friends. And then we also give you access to a bunch of stuff. Like community things like being able to join guilds, trading items, auction houses; all those kinds of things that we never even had with Diablo 2. Then, if you want to be a part of the evolution of Hellgate in that online forum, you know, and getting continuing content and expanded content, more things. Even from Day 1 there'll be things available that you'll get that you don't get right out of the box. That's when you would subscribe. So maybe we'd come up with some name for it, but the name isn't really designed to show some stratification of player value to us. Which I think is what people kind of pulled out of that. It's just whether or not you decided to go along for the ongoing content ride. But if you have an idea for a name, I'm into it, you know.

If I think of something I'll get back to you on that. [Laughs.]

Okay, great.

Maybe "Even More Hellacious," or something like that.

Or "Yet More, Yet Better." "Awesome and Awesomer."

There you go. So, there appears to be--again, like I said, I'll probably get the number wrong--there appears to be two parts to the other tier. One is the slots for characters and equipment and things like that, and then the other is the additional content.

It's not really two tiers. Basically, when you subscribe, there's a few things that kind of turn on immediately and then there's the continuing content, right? So, obviously, if you subscribe, Day 1 we'll be able to tell people, "Hey, here's what's gonna be coming', in the first month; first three months," our plans for that stuff. But even Day 1 when you subscribe there's additional things that you get right away. So it's really like it's not two tiers. It's just that you get extra character slots, extra stash stuff, and things like that that are immediately apparent. And then even from Day 1 you'll be seeing what you're gonna be getting in that flow of continuing content. We want to be really open with people, letting 'em know what's in the queue, what we're working on. And actually, a lot of what we're doing in terms of the planning for the continuing content is kind of two-fold where we have plans on what it is that we want to do and how we want to approach the continuing content, but then also set within our early planned content pushes are big areas where it'll be based on player feedback. So, the early stuff will be even based on what our feedback is from our community during the beta, and then as the game goes live, you know, we want to keep working with the community to see what it is.

If we're gonna be doing something, as an example, in the realm of PvP combat, it'll be us learning what's fun about the game in terms of PvP based on some early arena or dueling combat, and then talking to the community and saying, "What is it that you guys want? Do you want different game play modes? Do you want ranking? Do you want stratification?" Finding out what it is that's gonna excite PvP players. We want to make sure that as we do that continuing content, it's a combination of our ideas for the game, what we think is gonna work really well, and then also finding out what it is that our community wants.

I've always been a pretty big fan of how the City of Heroes and City of Villains guys do that. Cryptic does a really nice job of working with their community, really talking with them ahead of time, and letting them know what's coming up in patches. I think it's really cool. I used to play a lot of City of Heroes and City of Villains. A bunch of people in the office here play, and it's always really exciting to see what they're working on. And they let you know ahead of time, so you're like, "Oh, that's really cool." They even do things in their forums like letting people vote on what they want. It's like "Hey, here's three ideas. Which ones do you guys like? What do you guys want to see?" I really like that level of interaction. That's something that we want to do and that's a big benefit for people that do subscribe and want that ongoing content--they get to be a part of that process and getting what they want out of the game.

I didn't mean to suggest that there were two tiers. I just meant that there were two components to the Elite service.

To an extent. I don't really think of it as two components. It's just that even before there has been a lot of continuing content done, you're getting something when you subscribe, and then you know what you're gonna be getting in the weeks and months that follow. It's definitely something that we understand for a lot of people out there causes some head scratching because it's a very different model. People are used to either buying a boxed game and then getting some kind of online play. Like it's something that you're getting--like D2 [Diablo 2] or Battlefield or whatever--and  there's a way to go online and play. Or, people get an MMO where there is no single-player: you just go on Day 1 and you just start paying.

We wanted to do what we've done with Hellgate--where we have a hybrid, trying to take the best of different styles of game playing--we wanted to do the same thing from a business model standpoint. We wanted to have a way where people who just wanted to play the game single-player--we know there's people who still like doing that--they can do that. They can have a really fun, compelling experience with a lot of replayability value. Then, if they want to go online but they're not really sure if they want to be a subscriber, they can have that same experience, share with their friends, also get some community stuff. and really have a good online experience.

But then, for people that do want to have that continuing flow, that ability to grow with the game and to be a part of actually influencing the design, then they subscribe and they get to actually participate in that. So, it's taking that really great element for both the gamers and the developers that you see in MMOs where the game is organic, and continues to grow, and continues to evolve. Because just like you get in a relationship and even with your character that you're creating, you can do the same thing with the game. So, in a way we kind of wanted to be able to address everything the best we could.

That's what I wanted to zero in on. As you suggested, you know, there are established business models that people are used to and you guys are trying to hybridize it. It's understandable: if you want ongoing content, you need to find a way to pay for it. The thing that I think people are having a problem with is that there's an aspect of it that--let me put it this way: I think people would be sort of completely understanding if there were just a subscription fee for additional content and people would be free to say, "Okay, I don't want to pay. I understand I'm not getting that." Where people may be having trouble though is the additional character slot; the additional customization; those other things; and they're saying, "Well, maybe that is crippling the single-player experience a lot," even if there's a lot to the game. They're not understanding why that would be one of those lines in the sand where you say, "That's why you should pay a subscription fee."

Yeah, I understand that. I'm not really sure people look at it that way to be honest, but I understand it, that that's where the confusion comes from. They're not paying for those extra slots. Those are just more things we're giving you, all right? It's like, "Here's the game; here's the experience. You can have that exact same experience online plus other stuff that you wouldn't normally get online. And then when you subscribe you get even more stuff." It's not like there's stuff you get and then we cripple it when you go online, right. You get everything when you go online, plus; and then when you subscribe, you get even more.

I don't know. Maybe it's a glass half-full, glass half-empty comparison. You know, I think a lot of times people look at things and want to--there's an expectation of the negative. "Oh, well jeez, there must be some way that they're getting one over on me," and it's not common to just get value and then more value. And that's really where we come from. That's our stance.

You buy the box, you get the single-player; you get this fantastic experience offline. Then you go online; you play for free in a secured environment, client server, with community stuff; with all these extra things. You get a standard amount of character slots and inventory--we don't reduce what you had from your single-player experience. That's what you're getting, same experience you got out of the box.

But then when you subscribe, not only do you get the community content, but we give you some other little bonuses right away. Like we'll give you some more character slots and we give you a bigger stash, and things like that. But it's not like you got less than you got playing the game normally. You just get more. And so maybe that's where some of the confusion is that people think that when they go online they're getting some reduced content or reduced support when they don't. They get all the content and support that's there. But then when you subscribe you get even more.

I can see that from your side but, like I said, I think it does feel like that to certain people because they're saying, "Well, why wouldn't you standardize the character slots and the stash and have the differentiator just be, 'You pay for content?'" Because I think that's something people have already a grasp of. You're right to say that they're not getting less of an experience, but it feels like less of an experience because the differentiator isn't just the content; it's these other things that kind of relate across the board.

You know, I honestly don't know how to address that. I mean, sometimes those people are just gonna feel that way no matter what you do. Anytime you introduce any kind of new model whether it's gameplay or whether it's a business model, there are going to be people saying like, "Well, but that's not how it's done, so there must be a downside." We don't really see it as a downside. We see it as just another upside. It may just be a completely different perspective. I don't really know how to address that. It's not like we come up with some way where the people that have the out-of-box experience online are getting screwed. They're getting the complete, full experience. They're getting to go online and play for free. They're getting this, you know, pretty incredible thing, in our minds, and we think in the vast majority of player's minds.

Right.

But then, if you subscribe to the ongoing content, we give you some other stuff right away. We don't reduce your standard experience in any way. We just give you some other things. And I don't know, maybe--I sometimes tend to believe that if there wasn't this, there'd be something else that people would be upset about [laughs], and I hope that's not the case. But I think that people really need to look at what they're getting with that standard box. I mean, they're getting way more than we ever gave with Diablo 2 and we've worked very hard to find a way to do that for free 'cause that was very, very important to us. We knew it was very, very important to our players.

But then, moving into that continuing content model, that subscription model, we kind of wanted some stuff there Day 1 that shows our appreciation for players who are like "Yeah, this awesome. I'm on board." Even if maybe Day 1 there isn't continuing content, we want to recognize the fact that you're there. So we give you some early perks. We give you a few more character slots. We give you a bigger stash. But it doesn't detract or limit from the experience the players already have. So, hopefully people see that and they don't feel like we've somehow tried to dupe them or rip them off, because really they're getting more than we've been able to give them before for the people that get to play for free.

Next:  Roper explains why Flagship chose a subscription model over a la carte, its philosophy for future content updates, and why we should think of Hellgate: London as a massively multiplayer online game.