Flagship Studios CEO Bill Roper
This week, we once again dip into the Level Up Interview Vault to bring you our extensive multi-part Q&A with Flagship Studios CEO Bill Roper. Roper's place in game history is already secure, having worked in various producer roles at Blizzard on a slew of products--Warcraft II: Tides of Darkness, Diablo, StarCraft, Diablo II, Warcraft II: Beyond the Dark Portal and StarCraft: Brood War--ultimately rising to vice president of Blizzard North and a director of Blizzard Entertainment. For his second act, Roper and a handful of Blizzard vets formed Flagship Studios, and their first product, the Diablo-inspired action-RPG for PCs called Hellgate: London, arrives in stores next month courtesy of publishers Electronic Arts and Namco Bandai.
We spoke with Roper twice this year; first at January's Consumer Electronics Show, and subsequently in June after some fans had begun to grumble about Hellgate's tiered pricing model. Our first interview, conducted in the gaming area of Microsoft's CES booth, began inauspiciously when the PC running Roper's Hellgate demo overheated. So we began with some small talk, but by the end, we were engaged in a fascinating conversation about the extent to which Hellgate is breaking new ground with its pervasive use of randomization.
So you're here for the whole show, or are you just in for a couple of days?
No, I'm here for the whole show. I leave Thursday afternoon. There's a lot to see. I haven't been to CES in a long time.
Are you going to get some time to walk around and check stuff out on the show floor?
I think Thursday I have some time.
So what kind of gadgets are you personally into? There's some game stuff here, obviously, but this is pretty much a gadget show.
I'm a movie wonk, so of course it's like, "Ooh, a hundred and three inch TV--that's nice. How about I get one of those?" Which is insane. If it's next to a sixty five inch, I'm like, "Oh, look at that tiny little sixty-five inch television." [Laughs.] Which is bigger than mine; I've got a sixty-three. But I'm like "Oh my God, that's insane."
So when you see a hundred-and-three inch TV out there, does that motivate you to work even harder on Hellgate?
Oh yeah. I'm like "How do I even afford that?" Becaue that's what I want. And of course, then you always want have a place big enough to actually put that TV. So it kind of all goes together. I mean, I'm a big music and movie guy, so I need a full room. It's kind of funny, because this is the same time as Macworld's going on back home, right?
I'm just blown away when I just walk around and look at stuff. Even if it's not something I'm into, I'm just like "What is that thing?" "What is that doing?" And the eighteen thousand different types of speakers, which I thought was really funny too. Just walking by these things. I mean, we've got these Darth Vader, JBL speakers on here. And then I walked by some other thing and it was more of a kid's game; it had these little flower looking speakers. Everything is so customized, so long gone are the days of just a big, chunky, horrible, PC brown--you know, that nice, neutral tone, block speakers. I love the fact that you can come to this show and you see all this technology. It's obvious that the people here, they are motivated to make something that isn't just functional, that looks good in your house, and you feel good about having. It really shows stuff off. And that hundred and three inch TV. That's the really--that's the one I want. I'm sure my wife will kill me if I come home with it. But you know--
But if Hellgate does well, then everyone wins.
That's right. Yeah, my goal is to buy everybody in the company a hundred and three inch TV. That would be good. That's the new goal.
So in Hellgate: London, we have three different factions. The factions are--within the context of the game world of the story--the different philosophies and backgrounds of the characters. They also present the three different gameplay mechanics, base mechanics that are in the game. So we've got the Templars which are sword-wielding, shield-bashing, melee characters that get in there and do a lot of the physical damage up close and personal with the demons. There's the Cabalists, which are our magic users, turning the dark powers of the demons against them. They can summon demons as pets; they can transform parts of themselves into demons. They also can channel dark energies through these devices they have.
The Hunters are kind of the super high-tech, wetworks, black ops, Area 51 technology agents that are out there. Part of the idea behind the world is that we're in a 2038, near-future, post-demon apocalyptic London. A handful of survivors that have kind of been underground for about twenty years are now trying to reestablish a foothold against the demons that have pretty much taken over the vast majority of the city. The underground stations are our safe havens--I won't get too world background-wonk on you about it, but it all does tie into like how actually the underground stations were created and the Freemasons, all that kind of stuff. So we've done a lot of research to make sure the game actually has--even our strange alternative future has this basis in reality that kind of lend it a real--a real sense that you're there.
Between Resistance: Fall of Man, Hellgate: London, "28 Days Later" and "Children of Men," what is it about London and the apocalypse?
You know, one of the reasons we chose London, there's actually a couple of reasons. One, it's always been this epicenter of huge struggle. It was founded by druids originally when it was Londinium. Then I mean it's been taken over by the Vikings; by the Romans. There was the Blitz in World War II. It always seems to be this center for people wanting to take it. And for huge apocalyptic events happening. The Great Fire of 1666; the plague; the fact that it was just pummeled in World War II. When we were talking about where to set the game, that was really one of the big draws for us. We wanted a city that had a really good history to it, that had a foundation in mythology, and had a more mystical setting, which it does. I mean there's the fact that it was founded by druids. It's you know, built on lay lines, magical lay lines, and there's so many things about London that in reality, lend itself to being this kind of focal point for building stories. It just drew us there.
The other thing to be honest was the architecture. It's got this very unique look to it. Because the city's been through so much turmoil, it's kind of like a phoenix, risen out of the ashes over and over again. And they just kind of rebuilt next to and on top of, so you get this kind of Gothic architecture next to really modern stuff, next to Victorian. You get all these great looks. Also very important for our game, is that London has an entire city beneath the city. Everything from the underground stations to Victorian-era hospitals that were built underneath; the plague pits that were done in the 1600s; World War II bomb shelters; the sewer line. There's actual other brother and sister rivers to the Thames that run under there. There's a separate mail train system that's underneath London. There's all these things that are down there and we really wanted to be able to have the game take place equally above ground and below ground. We wanted it to have a place that we could build a modern dungeon crawl out of. London is perfect for that. And it's a great excuse to go to London, to research stuff. That's the other reason we wanted to go. [Laughs.]
Right.
So here, I'm playing the hunter right now which is kind of the most FPS-oriented of all the factions. The game, because it is an action RPG, is really based around the items that you're finding; your leveling; the level of the monsters that you're fighting to have success. With a Templar and the Cabalist, we do a lot of things like auto-targeting, auto-aiming, arcs of fire that really make it so that's all you're really concerned about.
But because we have this really great 3-D engine that's been designed since day one to be used first-person, as well as third-person, we wanted to build a faction of characters that were really centered around that first-person mechanic and that gameplay. So aiming does matter for the hunter. I do have to take that into account though all of the other RPG elements still apply. Here, I've got an enemy selected, he's up here and he's within range, but he's not in my radius of fire. If I was a Cabalist, my shots would actually be arc over and hit him. Here I actually have to get him in my sights to do that. All of the skills that are designed for the--some of the classes and the hunter faction, take it and really focus on that, and you'll get better range and better accuracy, but you lose movement. All the weapons are built much more around that concept.
Can we talk a little bit about the level design? You talked about the architecture, but looking at this level right here--I've seen a lot of like war-torn cities that are World War II-ish, and they all start to look the same. This feels interesting and unique and fun. It has a really good sense of place. It's familiar, but it doesn't look like a lot of those World War II games which have a same-y-ness in the way they look.
Well that's one of the big things that has been a challenge for us in terms of using such a well-known city. A real strength of Hellgate: London is the fact that every time you go out into an area, every time you go out adventuring, you're going to a randomized dynamically generated setting. So it's not like we actually map out London specifically. But what we've done is we went to London, took photo reference for textures and everything, so when you're in different parts of London, it's built out of things that feel right for that section of London. However, the actual layout that we're going through is completely randomly generated. The huge upside of that is you never lose the sense of exploration that you lose in a lot of RPGs, "Oh, I've been through this area before. I know where everything is. I know what items they drop. I know where to hunt for them." Here, the monsters are different. The items they drop are different. The layout's different. You never know what you're going to get. And depending on where you are in the game--
But that's even more impressive. I remember reading that it was randomly generated, but I'd forgotten obviously when I was asking the question. I mean it's randomly generated, but it doesn't look lame, though.
Yeah. And that's--I mean it's a real tribute to our background guys. The background artists and our programmers do these things we call DRLGs, Dynamic Random Level Generators, to design pieces that flow together naturally and look right; that care about how many phone boxes you're putting on the street. We do a lot of variation as well. That's the key is to do, like this little piece that has the car here that I've blown out. This is a variation of this smaller tile chunk, and there's fifteen of those, or twenty of those, or you know, as many as we can make, that have boxes or ladders or blown out buildings or different cars. And we're putting more and more and more of those in. There's a ton more in this game than I even have in this demo here.
The first batch of automobiles they started putting in were more like you know, public transportation vehicles and cars people own. Now the stuff we're putting in is military vehicles to show that there was this big struggle that went on. And really the goal is that we want you to go through the game and no matter how many times you've been through a certain kind of area, it should never feel like "Oh man, I'm just seeing this same old thing over and over again." And it is really difficult. It's a very, very difficult task, but the payoff is great because then you get all the replayability. You can keep going through the game, it always feels fresh, it always feels new. But you don't get that sameness feeling. It is really difficult.
Obviously that random level generating approach that's well suited to a Diablo-style RPG, but as you're showing here, it was intended from the beginning to be done in a first-person engine. Having as you get closer to the end of the process, having been through all this and all this stuff you've learned, do you feel that there are some things you guys have learned on this that might be applicable to games that aren't RPGs like Hellgate?
Oh yeah. Definitely. I think that randomization is actually really underused. There's definitely a reason for that. It's hard. And the challenge is to do it, but make it look easy, to have it where people don't look at it and go, "Oh, you can kind of tell they tried to do randomization and it looks the same." It's a lot of work. You have to have it in mind when you start. But I think that you see it in bits and pieces in a lot of games. Even like you know, World of Warcraft has randomized, things that drop, and you're like "Oh, I found it," but they tend to be in smaller portions. With Hellgate London, we've tried to apply the randomization process in every single element of the game. To when levels are generated. To what monsters are spawned. To what items drop.
Along with that randomization goes rarity which is important. So you're not just finding--"Oh, I found this type of sword instead of that type of gun." It's like, "I found this sword and it's magical," or it has mod slots, so you can modify the weapon. It's a unique one, so maybe there's only twenty of them in the whole game. It's part of a set, so you want to build the different pieces of the set together. And all that randomization and rarity is in the same thing, it's in the background levels. When you go into a background level, it's a rare version of that level. Everything has a fire aspect. It has fire in the sky, fire damage, and every item that drops has some fire components to it. And maybe you only get that one in a thousand times. And that maybe has only certain types of unique items that will drop associated with that set.
We do the same thing with quests, where you'll be out running around in an area, and we have these things called chance events, where you'll get contacted on your PDA and there's a Templar who's wounded, and he's sent out an emergency beacon. And you don't get that every time you play. Maybe one in a hundred times does that happen. It really keeps you guessing. That's what I love about it. We play the game literally every day at this point, a little bit at least. I played last Friday. We have a play day every Friday now. There's tons of stuff that I've never seen before. One, because content is still jumping in, but even in areas where I've been playing for two years, like "Whoa, I've never seen that here before. What's that thing?" And it's really fun. That really translates so well to when when people are playing the game.
How then do you make the randomization approach work with the storytelling?
The story telling elements are designed to--basically, they're nodes that you get to. We do some randomization within those nodes. Here's a good example. When you go to the British Museum, which is an area that you get to fairly early in the game, that's part of a quest. The area surrounding the museum is all randomized. So the pathway to get there is randomized. When you get to the museum, the actual layout of the portion of the museum we have you play in isn't randomized. But where exactly--you're looking for a specific thing in the museum--where it is in the museum is randomly placed every time. So even though I know the layout of that area, I'm still not sure exactly where in the layout it's going to be.
The towns, for example, aren't random at all because you want people to be able to go to town and be able to sell items and things. There's places you want to have be static. But any place where you put some touch of randomization in is great because it helps create a bigger and broader diversity, and then on top of that, we plug in elements that players can use to specifically customize themselves. It's like modding weapons. "I found this random weapon that's really cool, but hey you know, I want to make sure it does extra fire damage, so I'm going to get some fuel cells, or I'm going to put this relic on it." So you kind of customize the weapon. Same thing with your character. The different pieces of armor all have these color features associate with them. I'm in bad light. I'm actually--let me move out here. We don't have our lighting thing working really well. So one of the things that players want to do is they--for that randomization, they find all these cool pieces of armor, they give them the best functionality. That's what they want, but they want to look good too. Everybody wants to look cool. And you want to try to look unique if you can.
So here, I've got some different piece of armor. I can use the color set from that armor, and so I'll use the color from the pants and apply it to the entire piece of armor. The chest, the shoulders. I can do that here. These are the color themes, and I'll swap over to that color theme. And now, my character has a very specific color look to them. With the randomization is that we can layer all of those things in. You might find this really uber-rare piece of armor, and one of the things about it that makes it so unique and rare is that it has this color theme that no-one else gets. We do color themes for certain times of the seasons, for certain quests that you completed. If you are a hardcore player which means that you get one death and one death only in the game--which is very unusual--you'll get access to looks and color themes. When you start a guild, you'll be able to choose the color theme of your guild and guilds will have their own set of color themes that only guilds can have.
It's an area where, even in the midst all that randomization, you can let people have that uniqueness. To me, that's one of the things that's so big, the players want it. They want to be in this world with you know, thousands and thousands of other players they interact with, but they still at the same time want to feel like there's something special about their character. The randomization really does help that a lot. So even when they're going on a quest that everybody else has been on, they'll have a different story about how they got to that same endpoint, and that's really important.
Bill, thanks very much for your time.
You bet. My pleasure.
Next: Roper explains--and defends--Hellgate: London's somewhat controversial business model.
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Flagship Studios Ceo Bill Roper's Hellgate: London caricature
In Part I of our four-part Q&A with Flagship Studios CEO Bill Roper, conducted at the January Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, we discussed the premise for the developer's first title, Hellgate: London, and its extensive plans for the use of randomly created content throughout the game. Parts II-IV come from a June phone conversation we had with Roper that took place after some grumbling began to brew as a result of Flagship's announcement of a two-tiered system for Hellgate, in which people who paid the "Elite" $9.95 monthly subscription fee would get not only regular content updates, but also additional character slots, extra item storage, visual distinctiveness from non-subscribers, and more.
Having long been curious about the potential of subscription-based online games like Phantasy Star Online whose structure deviates from that of traditional large-scale massively multiplayer online games, we decided to reconnect with Roper to discuss Hellgate's creative and financial model, which we think, should it become successful, will be one of the most influential developments in the industry in recent years. In today's installment, Roper clears the air about Flagship's two-tiered system and explains why he believes non-subscribers will still get a great experience when Hellgate ships next month.
We last spoke in January. Give me an update on where things are with the game.
Sure. We actually, just yesterday, started our friends and family alpha, so we sent out about our first hundred invitations to people that are actually friends and family or people that we've done a lot of beta testing with over the years. It's kind of the first generalized acid test of the game: our downloader, our installer; the whole shebang. Now we are just working on finishing up a few things, a lot of polish, balance, tweaking; you know, making sure things work 'cause we are both single-player and then the multiplayer. So we've been content locked for quite a while and we're definitely on that push towards release.
There's been a lot of discussion online about the business model of the game. Going back to the genesis of Hellgate: London, at what point did you know that you wanted to go with a sort of hybrid model: a base game that would have standard PC game retail pricing, and then an optional premium subscription model on top of it as well?
We've actually, since the beginning, known that we wanted to do a tiered format. It was very, very important for us to be able to come up with a way to actually provide even more of an experience than we did with Diablo 2, with Hellgate: London. Basically, we noticed people had a lot of expectations from the team because of what we did with the Diablo series. Part of that was the ability to when they got the game, having that single-player experience and then being able to take that and go online and have that experience for free. I wanted to make sure we had that because that was the base-level expectation of our fans. That's what they got from Diablo 2. We wanted to make sure that we could actually provide more than that. So even at the very beginning we wanted to make sure that our standard players were gonna go online, get that experience and then get a lot more. Be able to do things like join guilds and have, you know, different community things; things that we never actually were able to do in Diablo 2.
But we also knew that we needed to be able to evolve with the online expectations of players and be able to have a methodology to do ongoing content. That's something that we used to get a lot of requests for with Diablo 2. People were saying, "We're playing the game. We really love it." But they had to wait about a year for the first expansion and there was really never any other content upgrades, except there was one big patch that took another year and a half or two years to come out. We got so many requests, "We want more stuff, we want more characters; more areas; more monsters," on and on and on. All the things that really have become very expected and standard of an online RPG.
We wanted to be able to have that same dedication to the continuation of Hellgate: London that our fans do. And the way that we were gonna be able to make that happen was by being able to have a business model that would support a constant development team for the creation of ongoing content, that continuing content. So we knew from the beginning that we were to have to have a way for that to work, and that is what led us to then having a tiered experience. Basically, the out-of-the-box experience, which is actually being created to over-deliver, Diablo 2-plus for people that played D2, but then also having a continuing, ongoing content model that was supported by subscriptions.
So once you decided to go with tiers, there's sort of--and I'm probably gonna get the number wrong--it seems that there's two parts to the second tier which I guess you're calling Elite--
You know, just to interrupt--we're not really calling it Elite. [Laughs.] That was kind of a dev name that just--when we talked to [Games For Windows magazine], we threw it out there. We were throwing out joking names for stuff and I think unfortunately, that ended up having a really bad connotation with people. They said, "Oh, so either I'm Elite or I'm nothing," and it really isn't that way. I think we were trying to come up with something that just kind of sounded gamer-y and cool. It really just breaks down to your standard out-of-the-box experience and then whether you're a subscriber or not.
Elite put bad connotations in people's heads that are very misleading. It makes it sound like what you're getting with your game box purchase is not good when actually what you're getting with your game box purchase is pretty awesome. So that kind of threw us for a loop. We didn't really expect that reaction that we got from people and I think it kind of diminished the message of what it was that you got by buying the game and what you got by getting to go online and play for free. So, sorry; I just wanted to jump in there because the Elite thing came up and I just wanted to set that straight. I'm sorry to interrupt.
No, no problem at all. Interrupt away. Now, is there a new name in place or is that still TBD?
No. No. We haven't--yeah, I mean, maybe. If we come up some name for it, we might. The best way to really think about it is that when you buy the box you're getting the standalone single-player game. You can also then go online, be playing our client server on our servers. We're hosting you. It's for free having that same experience online with your friends. And then we also give you access to a bunch of stuff. Like community things like being able to join guilds, trading items, auction houses; all those kinds of things that we never even had with Diablo 2. Then, if you want to be a part of the evolution of Hellgate in that online forum, you know, and getting continuing content and expanded content, more things. Even from Day 1 there'll be things available that you'll get that you don't get right out of the box. That's when you would subscribe. So maybe we'd come up with some name for it, but the name isn't really designed to show some stratification of player value to us. Which I think is what people kind of pulled out of that. It's just whether or not you decided to go along for the ongoing content ride. But if you have an idea for a name, I'm into it, you know.
If I think of something I'll get back to you on that. [Laughs.]
Okay, great.
Maybe "Even More Hellacious," or something like that.
Or "Yet More, Yet Better." "Awesome and Awesomer."
There you go. So, there appears to be--again, like I said, I'll probably get the number wrong--there appears to be two parts to the other tier. One is the slots for characters and equipment and things like that, and then the other is the additional content.
It's not really two tiers. Basically, when you subscribe, there's a few things that kind of turn on immediately and then there's the continuing content, right? So, obviously, if you subscribe, Day 1 we'll be able to tell people, "Hey, here's what's gonna be coming', in the first month; first three months," our plans for that stuff. But even Day 1 when you subscribe there's additional things that you get right away. So it's really like it's not two tiers. It's just that you get extra character slots, extra stash stuff, and things like that that are immediately apparent. And then even from Day 1 you'll be seeing what you're gonna be getting in that flow of continuing content. We want to be really open with people, letting 'em know what's in the queue, what we're working on. And actually, a lot of what we're doing in terms of the planning for the continuing content is kind of two-fold where we have plans on what it is that we want to do and how we want to approach the continuing content, but then also set within our early planned content pushes are big areas where it'll be based on player feedback. So, the early stuff will be even based on what our feedback is from our community during the beta, and then as the game goes live, you know, we want to keep working with the community to see what it is.
If we're gonna be doing something, as an example, in the realm of PvP combat, it'll be us learning what's fun about the game in terms of PvP based on some early arena or dueling combat, and then talking to the community and saying, "What is it that you guys want? Do you want different game play modes? Do you want ranking? Do you want stratification?" Finding out what it is that's gonna excite PvP players. We want to make sure that as we do that continuing content, it's a combination of our ideas for the game, what we think is gonna work really well, and then also finding out what it is that our community wants.
I've always been a pretty big fan of how the City of Heroes and City of Villains guys do that. Cryptic does a really nice job of working with their community, really talking with them ahead of time, and letting them know what's coming up in patches. I think it's really cool. I used to play a lot of City of Heroes and City of Villains. A bunch of people in the office here play, and it's always really exciting to see what they're working on. And they let you know ahead of time, so you're like, "Oh, that's really cool." They even do things in their forums like letting people vote on what they want. It's like "Hey, here's three ideas. Which ones do you guys like? What do you guys want to see?" I really like that level of interaction. That's something that we want to do and that's a big benefit for people that do subscribe and want that ongoing content--they get to be a part of that process and getting what they want out of the game.
I didn't mean to suggest that there were two tiers. I just meant that there were two components to the Elite service.
To an extent. I don't really think of it as two components. It's just that even before there has been a lot of continuing content done, you're getting something when you subscribe, and then you know what you're gonna be getting in the weeks and months that follow. It's definitely something that we understand for a lot of people out there causes some head scratching because it's a very different model. People are used to either buying a boxed game and then getting some kind of online play. Like it's something that you're getting--like D2 [Diablo 2] or Battlefield or whatever--and there's a way to go online and play. Or, people get an MMO where there is no single-player: you just go on Day 1 and you just start paying.
We wanted to do what we've done with Hellgate--where we have a hybrid, trying to take the best of different styles of game playing--we wanted to do the same thing from a business model standpoint. We wanted to have a way where people who just wanted to play the game single-player--we know there's people who still like doing that--they can do that. They can have a really fun, compelling experience with a lot of replayability value. Then, if they want to go online but they're not really sure if they want to be a subscriber, they can have that same experience, share with their friends, also get some community stuff. and really have a good online experience.
But then, for people that do want to have that continuing flow, that ability to grow with the game and to be a part of actually influencing the design, then they subscribe and they get to actually participate in that. So, it's taking that really great element for both the gamers and the developers that you see in MMOs where the game is organic, and continues to grow, and continues to evolve. Because just like you get in a relationship and even with your character that you're creating, you can do the same thing with the game. So, in a way we kind of wanted to be able to address everything the best we could.
That's what I wanted to zero in on. As you suggested, you know, there are established business models that people are used to and you guys are trying to hybridize it. It's understandable: if you want ongoing content, you need to find a way to pay for it. The thing that I think people are having a problem with is that there's an aspect of it that--let me put it this way: I think people would be sort of completely understanding if there were just a subscription fee for additional content and people would be free to say, "Okay, I don't want to pay. I understand I'm not getting that." Where people may be having trouble though is the additional character slot; the additional customization; those other things; and they're saying, "Well, maybe that is crippling the single-player experience a lot," even if there's a lot to the game. They're not understanding why that would be one of those lines in the sand where you say, "That's why you should pay a subscription fee."
Yeah, I understand that. I'm not really sure people look at it that way to be honest, but I understand it, that that's where the confusion comes from. They're not paying for those extra slots. Those are just more things we're giving you, all right? It's like, "Here's the game; here's the experience. You can have that exact same experience online plus other stuff that you wouldn't normally get online. And then when you subscribe you get even more stuff." It's not like there's stuff you get and then we cripple it when you go online, right. You get everything when you go online, plus; and then when you subscribe, you get even more.
I don't know. Maybe it's a glass half-full, glass half-empty comparison. You know, I think a lot of times people look at things and want to--there's an expectation of the negative. "Oh, well jeez, there must be some way that they're getting one over on me," and it's not common to just get value and then more value. And that's really where we come from. That's our stance.
You buy the box, you get the single-player; you get this fantastic experience offline. Then you go online; you play for free in a secured environment, client server, with community stuff; with all these extra things. You get a standard amount of character slots and inventory--we don't reduce what you had from your single-player experience. That's what you're getting, same experience you got out of the box.
But then when you subscribe, not only do you get the community content, but we give you some other little bonuses right away. Like we'll give you some more character slots and we give you a bigger stash, and things like that. But it's not like you got less than you got playing the game normally. You just get more. And so maybe that's where some of the confusion is that people think that when they go online they're getting some reduced content or reduced support when they don't. They get all the content and support that's there. But then when you subscribe you get even more.
I can see that from your side but, like I said, I think it does feel like that to certain people because they're saying, "Well, why wouldn't you standardize the character slots and the stash and have the differentiator just be, 'You pay for content?'" Because I think that's something people have already a grasp of. You're right to say that they're not getting less of an experience, but it feels like less of an experience because the differentiator isn't just the content; it's these other things that kind of relate across the board.
You know, I honestly don't know how to address that. I mean, sometimes those people are just gonna feel that way no matter what you do. Anytime you introduce any kind of new model whether it's gameplay or whether it's a business model, there are going to be people saying like, "Well, but that's not how it's done, so there must be a downside." We don't really see it as a downside. We see it as just another upside. It may just be a completely different perspective. I don't really know how to address that. It's not like we come up with some way where the people that have the out-of-box experience online are getting screwed. They're getting the complete, full experience. They're getting to go online and play for free. They're getting this, you know, pretty incredible thing, in our minds, and we think in the vast majority of player's minds.
Right.
But then, if you subscribe to the ongoing content, we give you some other stuff right away. We don't reduce your standard experience in any way. We just give you some other things. And I don't know, maybe--I sometimes tend to believe that if there wasn't this, there'd be something else that people would be upset about [laughs], and I hope that's not the case. But I think that people really need to look at what they're getting with that standard box. I mean, they're getting way more than we ever gave with Diablo 2 and we've worked very hard to find a way to do that for free 'cause that was very, very important to us. We knew it was very, very important to our players.
But then, moving into that continuing content model, that subscription model, we kind of wanted some stuff there Day 1 that shows our appreciation for players who are like "Yeah, this awesome. I'm on board." Even if maybe Day 1 there isn't continuing content, we want to recognize the fact that you're there. So we give you some early perks. We give you a few more character slots. We give you a bigger stash. But it doesn't detract or limit from the experience the players already have. So, hopefully people see that and they don't feel like we've somehow tried to dupe them or rip them off, because really they're getting more than we've been able to give them before for the people that get to play for free.
Next: Roper explains why Flagship chose a subscription model over a la carte, its philosophy for future content updates, and why we should think of Hellgate: London as a massively multiplayer online game.
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Flagship Studios CEO Bill Roper in San Francisco
In Part II of our four-part interview with Flagship Studios CEO Bill Roper, we got to talking about the company's somewhat criticized two-tiered model for its debut game, Hellgate: London. Roper informed us that the paid subscribers would no longer be referred to as Elites, and went on to explain that in his opinion, the free experience, which includes online play, was still a terrific value that should not be looked at as downgraded compared to the paid subscription service. Today, in Part III, Roper tells us why Flagship chose a hybrid business model for Hellgate: London; how the company is structured to deliver regular content updates; and why people should think of the game as an MMO.
In some ways, there isn't really a model like what you're doing on Hellgate: London. You have MMOs where people pay a subscription fee for the service. There are item-driven, micro-transaction driven MMOs, primarily in Asia. The closest thing that I think of to this--but it would even be different from what you guys have done--is Phantasy Star online, where you could play the single-player experience for no additional charge, but then to play with up to three other friends online, you paid a monthly fee. What's interesting is that audiences accepted that, whereas there's been some criticism of your approach with both free online and a paid subscription model. When you guys were formulating how you wanted to approach Hellgate's business model, what was the process you went through? What were the models that you looked at? How did you decide, "Here's what we think has worked; here's what we think doesn't; here's what we think is going to work for our audience?" What was the guiding philosophy?
Well, the guiding philosophy was what's gonna be the best for the game and for our players. We knew that players wanted the ability to go online and play for free. That was very, very evident. That was an expectation. And so even as a startup with our first game, we had to figure out a way to make that happen. We knew that that was gonna be a big selling point in terms of reaching out to all the Diablo players around the world. That was their, you know, expectations. They wanted to be able to have that same experience. But then we also knew that there was a big outcry and a need for continuing content and so, for us it really is "How do we accomplish these goals? How do we make sure there's free multiplayer? And then, how do we also support ongoing, continuing content and the things that are encompassed in that?" We talked about all kinds of things. We looked at all the models that are there: everything from real money transactions and item purchases to auction-based systems. All kinds of stuff. And really we tried to come up with what we thought would be the cleanest division, "Here's where you can get this experience and it's free. And then when you want to go to ongoing content, that's where we do a subscription."
We worked very hard to also try to come up with a price point--we decided on the $9.99 price [for monthly subscriptions]. It wasn't that we felt we were offering any less than games that cost $14.95 a month. It's just like with the game where we've done things like, for example, low-poly assets: low-poly versions of every graphic in the game so you can reach lower end video cards and older systems, 'cause we want to get it out to as many people as we can. Same thing with the pricing model. We want people to be excited about the potential of ongoing content from what's gonna be there; all the events we're gonna be having; these big content pushes every three months or so; and being on board with that and kind of sharing in that experience, and doing it in a way where we weren't busting the bank.
That was a lot of work not only from a development standpoint, but also with the online model: how we can do things so we can be more economical so we can actually offer it at that price? The board of directors here at Flagship sat down and everything that we decided was based on "How do we do what's best for the game, how do we do what's best for the players?" That really drove what the business model was gonna be. It's all about what could we do that enables us to be able to offer an amazing value, to kind of over-deliver, and to make sure that we can have people play for free for as long as they want. And then be able to support ongoing content that's very interactive, very driven by the community in a lot of ways so that it reflects what they want out of the game at a price point that was gonna be really friendly. The vast majority of our business decisions get driven by "What's good for the game? What's good for the players? What would we want? We're all gamers, so what it is that we want to do?"
That's how Battle.net got started in the first place back at Blizzard. We were at E3 and that was when TEN and Catapult and all these pay-for-play services were the rage. And we said, "God, wouldn't it be really cool if when you bought the game, you click a button, and you go online and play for free. That would be cool. That's what I would want to do." And so we just did it. We built that and that's what it was all about. With Hellgate: London, it's like, "Okay, what do we want to do? Hey, we want to make sure that people can have that same experience: that click of a button, go online, play for free. But then for people that want to have that long-term relationship with the game, we want to be able to have the same kind of long-term commitment and relationship, and build a game and continue to grow it and change it, and get in what they want, and get in more of our ideas, and do that in a way that doesn't kill anybody." It doesn't kill us, it doesn't kill them.
In terms of the continuing content model--I'm sure you guys must have considered--you say you're looking at a roughly sort of quarterly schedule for the major content updates. Did you consider sort of an a la carte model? What pushed you to a subscription model?
Because we'll be doing a lot more than just the push every three months. You know, we're already planning things; looking at monthly events, weekly things. If we come up with a really cool idea, we may not want to wait until that big content push to introduce things into the world. And then there is honestly a lot of expenses involved in running an online service and having a development team that's constantly being able to fix issues and balance tweaks and bugs, all those kind of things.
But I also don't want people to just think that because they're paying a subscription, they're only gonna get something once every three months. They're getting things all the time. There will constantly be things that we're streaming out to the player; events that are happening; special things that are tied to real-world timeline events; things that we build specifically just for inside the game that deal with our world history. We've even talked about things like every Tuesday is mod day and some Tuesdays we change--you know, you have a higher chance of mod dropping and different costuming to put on your weapon. Like we kind of change the rules on different days of the week. We'll have special events that happen once every two weeks, things we'll constantly be putting into the game and pulling out of the game, altering and changing. And all those things take coordination and programming, and art resources, and all that.
The goal is that there's always something going on and we're kind of always getting you new, fun things that happen in small amounts. But then once every three months there's a big content drop that happens as well, and that can be anything from new areas, new monsters, new weapons, new quests, new everything. New gameplay mechanics, new damage types, even up to and including new character classes, which traditionally you only ever see in expansion sets. We want to have those kind of quarterly pushes being really big things that people are looking forward to, but at the same time they're constantly getting new stuff in the game.
So how are you organized internally to support the weekly, monthly and quarterly updates and events? How are you structured?
Well, pretty much when the game shifts, that's when the majority of the company is still working on it. Obviously because it's our big product that's launching, and it's our initial launch, that means the vast majority of the company is focused on that. We have people that are assigned as leads--design leads or program leads--and they kind of are that core of what makes up that ongoing content theme. We've already done a lot of designing/planning on what can happen in different months and different ideas, how those get created. And we do maintain a very organic development process where we'll structure things out in terms of a skeletal structure, where we have a high-level overview, a main line of what's gonna happen; but then we always leave room both in our dev schedules and in our design to be able to be iterative. So, if something goes in and it's not as good as we thought it was, we can change it. If it was really good, we can expand that idea. And we can get feedback from the community; we can actually see what's happening in the game and make additions or alterations that way. We're trying to stay as flexible as possible because that's really the most exciting thing about having an online game that has the ability to create continuing content is that you're not just building something for months and years, and then it comes out and you hope its what people want. You can be very iterative. You can make changes both small and large that take into account what's actually happening.
That may be the most exciting thing about doing any kind of MMO at all is the fact that your turnaround time is a lot shorter, right? You can say, "Oh, hey, this isn't working. People don't like that. Well, what if we change it this way? OK, boom, let's try that change, put that change in live. OK, yeah, that made it really good." Or, "Hey, it would be really interesting if we added this ability to this monster because it seems like that would make him a lot more fun for people to play at higher levels," and you can just make that change and put it in. You don't have to wait a year before an expansion set comes out to do that or something, right? So the team will be a mix across the board. It's still actually not design-heavy, but design-focused, in the fact that it's not just a list of things that we want to get done. It's us being able to play the game ourselves, interact with our community, and be iterative and responsive to what it is that the game wants and what the players want.
Do you have a name for this kind of thing? I mean, is it a minimally multiplayer online game?
No, it's an MMO. I mean, MMO means "massively multiplayer online." We're gonna be connecting hundreds of thousands to millions of players online. You know, Diablo 2 is an MMO, but in people's heads when they think MMO they think the EverQuest model so that gives them all these parameters of what an MMO is. And then---I don't know if this gets driven by marketing groups or by sales or fans, I don't know--people really seem to need, have that need to be able to strictly define things. Like I know that Raph Koster at one point referred to Guild Wars as a hub-and-instance MMO, trying to narrow down what kind of MMO it was. It's an MMO. You go online and you're playing with, you know, thousands of other people in your community. That's what Hellgate is. It's an MMO. But to me the more quote-unquote "confusing part" is that its both a single-player game and an MMO. I was thinking of it as trying to be kind of like the Swiss Army Knife of games or the Reese's Peanut Butter Cup of games. You've got your single-player MMO or whatever, or it kind of has these different arms that it reaches out to, these different people that want to play it. But we talk about it as being a massively multiplayer online game in the fact that we're gonna be putting a massive amount of people together to play a game.
It is a different model in every way. Yes, it's a different business model. It's a different gameplay style. It's not gonna play like World of Warcraft. It's not gonna play like EverQuest because it's an action RPG, but it has story line, and role playing, and character development. Depending on what character class you play, you're even gonna get some different experiences there. If you're playing one of the hunter classes, especially the marksman, you're still going to be playing an action-RPG and still have all those role-playing things like leveling up and items, and skills, and you care about your character level versus monster level and all those things; but it has much more of an FPS feel to it. Like the mechanics flow more that way because the higher the level you get, depending on what skills you take, there's a lot more concern as to player skill whereas the Templar classes and the Cabalist classes don't really rely on player's skill; your twitch skill specifically. The marksman class very specifically, the higher level you get is more built to have more interest for FPS players because, depending again on the skills that you take, it becomes very dependent on player accuracy; and you get benefits for that.
Again, it's trying to take these elements from different types of games and--not mash them altogether but "Oh, this is really interesting about working in 3-D. This is really interesting about FPSs. This is really interesting about MMOs. You know, this is really interesting about very story-driven RPGs." Even things like the concept of content over time as opposed to content over area, which for the first time a lot of us ever really saw that used really well was in Animal Crossing. Animal Crossing has got a very small game space, but there's tons of new things that keep happening to you. That's because things are timed. Oh, I've been playing for this long. Oh, on this Tuesday this is gonna show up. Even though it's not like I had to go to a new land to find that. Things are coming to you.
And you even see that happen in games like Tiger Woods where they have a real-time event calendar. It's like "Cool, it's Easter. I can go win this shirt." That was a contest over time. Even things like that that come from different games and these blendings--I think that is where our minds have always been. If people feel that need to classify it, hopefully it'll be classified as a really fun game they like playing as opposed to just having to stick it in some box.
Next: Businessman, game developer, musician, voice actor--is there anything Roper can't do?
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In Part III of our four-part Q&A with Flagship Studios CEO Bill Roper, we talked about whether his company's first game merited the MMO label and the reasoning behind Hellgate: London's hybrid business model. In today's final installment, we discuss the relationship between Flagship, Namco and Electronic Arts; whether Roper is concerned about the amount of risk inherent in Hellgate's numerous innovations; and whether his real-world musical abilities are transferable to Guitar Hero.
As Flagship was developing the content model and business model for Hellgate: London, what role did EA and EA Partners play? I understand EA Partners is primarily distribution. It's not like you're an owned studio. You have a lot of freedom to determine your future. But what kind of guidance, advice, philosophy sharing--did you guys work together on this stuff at all, or did you just tell them, "Hey guys, here's what we're gonna do"?
It definitely was driven out of Flagship. Once EAP came on as a publishing partner with Namco, certainly we availed ourselves of all the knowledge that was there: the research they've done; all the things that EA definitely brings to the table. For example, when we were talking about pricing for the continuing content, the number, that $9.99, came out of Flagship; but then we talked with EA about it and said, "OK, here's what we think it should be. What do you guys think? We want your feedback on it." It wasn't like EA said, "OK, great. Now that we're doing the distribution and whole thing, here's the price, here's your model, here's your list of things." That was all driven internally by the team, by the company. But at the same time, we were very pleased to be able to have a wide breath of knowledge, and research, and experience to bounce those ideas off of and get very honest feedback. So there's been some good collaboration there.
From the previous conversation we had in January and then again now, it's clear that you guys are innovating in like a bunch of different directions. And innovation generally means risk. So, I mean, do you find yourself--other than being sort of up late working on the game--do you find yourself having sleepless nights worrying about the amount of risk that you've taken? Do you feel concerned about that level of innovation and risk-taking and do you ever wonder whether people will get it and get on board for it?
That's a great question. As with anything that isn't done yet [laughs] you worry, just because you can't predict everything that's gonna happen. I think that we have had an excellent track record of success with innovation. Going back to--at least for me personally--when I worked on Warcraft 2 nobody was doing eight-player, multiplayer, SVGA graphics. That was insane. But it was something that was a big innovation. All the multiplayer things that Starcraft did and the introduction of things that made it really a big part of the beginning of e-sports; and, the way we did matchmaking; just the fact that we had three races that were completely different--I mean, those were all big innovations that no-one had done before.
Diablo was definitely a huge, risky innovator in the fact that it was the first major game on the Windows platform; and I remember very specifically us having discussions with CUC or Cendant or whichever one of the big fish that had been eating off us at that point. And they were asking if we could do a DOS version 'cause "What if this Windows thing doesn't take off?" And we said, "No, we can't. We're very tied to the way that Windows works." At the same time we were doing that, we were launching this Battle.net thing. We did the original Diablo when RPGs were dead, and people asked "Why are you guys doing an RPG?" So I think that every title that we've worked on that has launched a franchise has been very innovative and has been filled with risk.
We've also been very fortunate that our players have shown the fact that they will support a great game. If the game is good, you know, they pick up all the other things that are different and unique about it. That's been what has driven us. Our main goal is that we have to make the best game possible. If people are like "Oh, I'm not really sure if it's single-player, if it's multiplayer, how does it work?" if they get in, start playing it, and they enjoy it, then it's like, "Ah, OK, now things make sense." It's like when we first started describing the game to people. We got a lot of people saying, "What? It's an RPG; but it's action-y; but it has a shooter-thing; but it's first-person; but it's third person?" But then all we really had to do was get them to sit down and play the game. And once they spent five minutes playing it they got it. They go, "Oh, OK, I understand what you guys are doing."
It's the same kind of thing even now, when we release videos of the game or screenshots. You want those to be exciting and so you show a lot of action, right? People don't necessarily want to look at a screenshot of you getting a quest from somebody or standing in town. So then people say "Well, we noticed the game looks really action-heavy and shooter-y. Are there RPG elements?" Yes, of course there are, but those are really hard to illustrate in a screenshot. Those are the types of things that as you play it, you say "Wow, I'm really getting into the story, this is really cool." "Oh look, my storyline is kind of different when I'm playing a different faction." There's a lot of things that you get only by playing. And I think that to a degree what we're doing both game innovation-wise, and even the way that our business model works, when people get the game and play, it suddenly makes sense.
I think we've always been very fortunate to have an incredibly smart and passionate and cool player community. We had a community day here about three weeks ago, I guess, where we brought in about 22 community leaders from the U.S. and Europe and had 'em sit down and play the game, and talk about what we're gonna be doing, explain the character class, and the whole thing. They left and were like, "Man, this is awesome," because they really got a chance to experience it. So for us, that's what takes the majority of the concern out of it. That's the reason I'm not staying up all night going, "Oh, my god, is this gonna work?" because we've been showing it to people. We've had our people playing it. I think it was really good for us the first time we got the folks over at EA playing it, 'cause they'd never seen the game other than peripherally at shows. So when we started working with EAP, we said, "Great, here's access to the game," and suddenly a lot of the questions that were there beforehand--now we started getting emails saying, "Wow, OK, we get it. This is cool. We get why this works."
As much as you read about something or talk about something, or see images about something, the proof is really there when you actually get your hands on it. And that's why we really wanted to have that--to tie it back into everything else--that's why we wanted to have that kind of that business model that is very friendly to wrap people into that ongoing experience if that's what they want. You can get the game, you can play it single-player. Maybe you don't like playing online. "Hey, great, I got this awesome single-player experience. It comes with replayability and, you know--wow, this really opens the lid. It's really cool. Oh, I can go online and try out this online for free? Well, that's awesome. I'm gonna do that." And now maybe your friend gets the game. You're not really sure if you want to play online or you want to check it out first and you go on there and you start getting that experience and seeing how that works and you say, "Wow, I want more of this. This is really fun." Then there's the way to do that. Again, really all about how do we get people to play the game because that's where they're gonna really get more and see more and understand more than any amount of us putting stuff in magazines or on the Web is gonna ever do.
At the EA Partners event at GDC after the Rock Band announcement, there were several instruments on stage, and you got up on stage and picked up the guitar and started playing the guitar and singing. You're actually quite good. Where did you get your guitar and singing skills, and how transferable have you found all that to Guitar Hero?
I'm a very mediocre guitar player. I'm a much, much better bass player, which helps me actually a lot in Guitar Hero. I can get by enough on guitar. I can accompany myself on some stuff. But I've always been a musician. I was a music major in college. I still sing in a band and play in a band. In fact, I've got my bass rig here in my office. And so [my playing at the event] was just kind of fun. Everyone was leaving and I was like, "Oh, hey--cool." In fact, earlier, during the setup, Brent Shinn who's our IT lead here, who is a great guitar player--we actually have a couple of awesome guitar players it the office--Brent was playing guitar and I was playing bass. There was a bass up there too. So, we were kind of jamming out. I've always played. I still play. My emphasis in college was on vocal.
Actually, it's really interesting--I find that in Guitar Hero, the right-hand transfers really well and the left-hand transfers strange. So when I'm hitting the notes and things, that transfers really well, though I tend to play the guitar in Guitar Hero like bass, so I don't do the picking motion like I would on a guitar. I actually use my pointer and middle finger like I'm playing bass for all that stuff. Because that's how I mostly play. The weird part is playing the songs and you're hearing notes in your head, but that doesn't always necessarily translate to where your fingers are on the board--that's the part that you have to make a disconnect on. It's kind of interesting though: I found that most of the people that when they start playing Guitar Hero they start on the four buttons that are the furthest down the neck. Then when they get to a higher level and they have to add the orange button, it gets really hard because they're locked down like that. The first time I picked up the Guitar Hero controller, picked up the guitar, just because of where I would actually put my hand--I actually center my middle finger on the yellow one so my pinky is on the orange all the time. And then I slide down for the far left.
Right.
I tend to slide a lot, just because that's the way I play bass. So, it was really interesting that--and when I was playing it at the office, the guys were like, "Wow, you hold it really weird. You never even use your pinky." I go, "Yeah, but when I get to expert, suddenly I'm gonna be fine because I don't have to re-learn how to play." It just mirrors the way that I play bass.
The thing for me that's kind of tricky is that--and this may be a difference in the fact that I'm more of a bass player than a guitarist--it was hard for me to kind of sync up with the beat in the game because I think as a bass player, you tend to be centered much more, right in the middle of the beat. If you think of a beat of music as kind of being, of having kind of a front, middle and a back end; a lot of times in jazz you stay on the back half of the beat. You kind of have that swing and that kind of lazy thing that you're going through. Typically in rock, the bass man and the drummer are gonna be locked in and they're both gonna be in the center of the beat. I noticed Guitar Hero lays you more on the back of the beat and that may be a guitarist-type thing. So I had to get used to the fact that where my downbeat was wasn't always where the game's downbeat was, which is kind of interesting. But fortunately, the game is more forgiving if you're early than if you're late, so I tend to be early a little bit, like a hair.
Got it.
And that was OK. It didn't kill me, 'cause I was more in the middle of the beat. And it's kind of fun too, because of the songs; you know all the songs, and the solos and stuff. But then it's learning [the difference between] where in my head I would be playing that solo or playing that line and then where [the game] chose to have you hit the beat and where it is in the neck--sometimes it's a little funky. It's almost like you get bonuses and minuses if you're a musician, if you're a guitarist or a bass player, because some things are a lot easier, but then some things just don't click with you mentally. All your muscle memory fights against you and you're like "Ah. Oh. No. Okay." But it's a blast. I love that game. I can't wait for Rock Band to come out. That's gonna be stupid fun 'cause we right now we're setting up our Guitar Hero tournament here at the office. But then when Rock Band comes out I'm sure we're gonna get a whole set. Because we actually could put together a real band in our office. We've got a couple of drummers and guitarists and bass players and singers and instrumentalists. It's kind of interesting. We have a lot of musicians in the office so I'm sure that we will have actual full rock band competitions here when the game comes out.
Battle of the bands over at Flagship?
Yeah, definitely, definitely. We have battle of the Guitar Heroes right now, so I'm sure that when Rock Band comes out we'll be having battle of the bands.
And as a bonus treat, should we expect to hear any of your vocals in the finished game?
I have some voices I'm doing in the game. Haven't done any singing, but maybe I'll sneak something in there as a hidden track or something, I don't know. But yeah, I've always tried to do voices in the games. I really love doing 'em. They're a lot of fun to do. Lets me kind of keep my voice acting chops up a little bit. But I still have to audition like anybody else. [Laughs.] I don't get to pull the hey-I-just-get-to-do-this-right? I have to actually meet the quality of our voice actors, which was kind of a challenge in Hellgate because the game is set in London. So we did actually the vast majority of the recording in the UK, with British actors. We wanted--we didn't want to have Mockney in there, right. We wanted it to sound like when you're talking with someone who's supposed to be British, they are. I do two characters in the game; one is British, one is American. The American one, of course, was much easier, but I really had to spend a lot of time getting honing my British accent so I didn't sound completely out of place. So that was kind of fun.
You're a Renaissance man, Bill. You're a man of many skills.
Yeah, well, I appreciate Renaissance man better than jack-of-all-trades, master of none. [Laughs.]
Terrific. Well, Bill, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I appreciate it.
Of course. Always happy to, N'Gai.
