Videogame director Cory Barlog

We first met Cory Barlog in 2005, just before the original God of War was set to arrive in stores back in 2005. Over a soul food dinner at The Shark Bar in Manhattan, we discussed how his role as lead animator on the original game had grown to the point where he'd been tapped to fill David Jaffe's shoes by serving as the director of the inevitable sequel. It was clear from our conversation that he was thrilled to have been given the opportunity to work on a truly great franchise rather than some of the games he'd worked on in the past. And after he knocked God of War II out of the park, we were eager to see what he would do with a potential God of War III on the Playstation 3.

So it came as something of a shock last November when we got a call from a source informing us not only that Barlog would soon announce his departure from Sony Computer Entertainment, but that he would be working with veteran film writer-director-producer George Miller--best known for the "Mad Max" series of movies that starred Mel Gibson--on some videogame projects. We immediately began negotiating with Barlog's representatives to secure on-the-record interviews with Barlog and Miller about their collaboration. This resulted in three interviews that we'll be publishing all week on Level Up. First is our Q&A with Barlog, in which he remains tight-lipped about precisely what he and his new partner's first game would be, but goes into great detail about why he felt he had to leave Sony Computer Entertainment. Next up is our conversation with Miller, who gave up the goods and explained why he's become fascinated with videogames. And finally, we'll publish our follow-up with Barlog, who, freed of the burden of secrecy, provided some terrific insights into how he plans to approach his first post-Sony project. Strap in, sit tight and enjoy.

So Cory, how did you get approached by George Miller? Give me the back story on how you ended up working with him.

Wow, it was a while ago that I got connected with CAA, through other people at [Sony Santa Monica]. I think it was just a random emailing from people that somehow got me connected with Seamus [Blackley, head of Creative Artists Agency's videogame division] and Ophir [Lupu, an agent in the same group]. They just wanted to have a meeting, to talk and hang out, and from that it was kind of like, "Well all right, it would be interesting to get you connected with different people." There was never any specific person that we were talking about connecting with; it was just like, "Let's try talking to some people."

So I met with a bunch of different people and one of them was George, when he was in town. It was funny because when I first met him the first thing I said was, "You know, you really messed me up as a kid, flying, because of that 'Twilight Zone' thing that you did." I don't know if you ever saw that, but the whole thing was very, very, very freaky for me and from that point on I hated flying,because of the whole Jon Lithgow, crazy guy, monster on the plane wing.

You mean the "Twilight Zone" movie?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right, the one with Steven Spielberg and all those other directors.

Yeah. So it was an interesting first meeting. He and I actually had the same sort of sensibilities as storytellers: the way both of us really want to take people on a bit of a journey. And from that he was like, "Hey, I'd really like to meet again and just chat." So I ended up going out to Sydney and hanging out with him for a couple of days. And it turned out that we really kind of thought the same way. Even we both came from two different disciplines, we had the same approach to things, and from that, we both really wanted to do something together and it just kind of ended up like that.

Is Miller a gamer?

He has some knowledge of games. A lot more than some people that I have met in the movie industry. He also has a son who's a really big gamer and he's very familiar with games, but probably not to the extent that he goes home and plays Halo 3 for six hours.

Having worked for a number of years in the videogame industry, what attracted you to partnering with someone who has a really strong reputation in movies, but not in games?

You know, I started out in the film industry. Granted, it was on the visual effects side. I was really attracted to the film industry from an early age. Actually, I guess I really started out in acting--really bad acting mind you, but acting nonetheless. And so I always loved the film industry.

I'm not necessarily leaving the game industry, just to be clear on that, but when I was doing visual effects I kind of came to the realization that I love movies way too much to stay in visual effects. Because I was working next to guys that worked on the original "Star Wars" and I realized how long it was going to take me to ever get anywhere on the visual effects side. Up until that point I'd been working on Inspector Gadget, nothing of all that high quality, and I love movies way too much to continue to slog on the bad movies.

I've always kind of maintained a connection to all of that, but I do enjoy the fact that there's a bridge being created between film and games. We've always had a lot of false starts given the fact that most game and movie collaborations--whether they be game first and then into a movie or vice versa--have a tendency to have a shoddy reputation. I definitely think that we're getting closer to a time when it's a lot more of a cross-fertilization that  is happening, I guess, for lack of a better term.

You said that CAA introduced you to a bunch of different people. I'm assuming that some of them were closer in age to you, maybe even gamers themselves. Yet you ultimately decided to partner up with Miller. So again, what about your interactions with him in particular made you say, "Hey this is the guy who's right for me to connect with," rather than some guy who does go home and play six hours of Halo 3 or both God of War and God of War II over a couple of weekends?

Good point. When I parted away with Sony, my goal was to broaden things. I wanted to get a better portfolio. To creatively be able to work on multiple things. Right now it's more of a consulting thing, so George and I partnering up is one part of a master plan, for lack of a more creative term.

When I met with him, the interaction was like two storytellers getting together, in the way that both of us were able to relate to various subjects. He has a game knowledge. While he may not be a hardcore gamer, he has a game knowledge, and he comes from an angle that I'm very passionate about. I don't really want to make casual games or games with no sort of story backbone or character backbone. Our conversations, they kind of were all over the map, but they went to the heart of so many things as opposed to being kind of like, "Hey, so what do you like?" and "What do you like?" It was detailed conversations about character interactions and the way that each of our industries can kind of push things further.

George is really big on the integration of content in all aspects. I mean, from his animation studio that he's doing with new media and the film stuff that he's doing. He's really interested in the game side as well. He really has an interest on all these fronts and in bringing everything together. They're big on this concept of workshopping over there and they really involve everybody. Say you're workshopping a script for an animated feature; they'll bring in people from the game side, people from the film side and people from the animation side. If they're going to be working on a game, they'll bring in people from all different aspects to come together; bringing in new concepts, new ideas, things that maybe you hadn't necessarily thought of in your own singular little gaming world. But having said all that, I still am connected in the gaming industry and still want to work with people within the gaming industry.

I guess the idea behind my whole thing really came from looking at directors in the film industry as they sort of matured in the mid-60's. The idea that when you were a director, even in the 50's, you were owned by a studio, say Warner Brothers or Universal or whomever. They would basically employ a director on salary and the director would just direct whatever the studio had available to him. And now it's changed. Directors choose the projects they want to work on and have a wider variety in their portfolio. That's what I'm looking for now in the game industry. I'm seeing that it can change. We are on the beginning steps of a journey of everybody kind of moving towards this idea that creative can be a bit more valuable within this industry, and perhaps we can at least learn a few things from the film model. Maybe we don't take the film model exactly, but I think there's lots of things we can learn from it.

So was this something you were already thinking about before you met with CAA? Or did Seamus and Ophir strap you in a chair, pin your eyes back and force you to watch lots of violent movies--

While putting eye drops in my eyes?

Exactly.

No, no, no, this is something I was thinking about for a while. I was basically working on God of War II and starting to write it before I finished working on the first one. I had a very, very short break and then I was immediately onto II. And then when I was finishing up II, I was supposed to have a longer break, but I ended up having to just go straight into writing and planning III. So I didn't have much of a break there. And I started to realize after about four years of just nonstop--go, go, go, go, go--I was looking down the barrel of another three-and-a-half years.

It would've been the completion of obviously something that was very dear to me, but it was still another God of War, and I was kind of like, "Wow, man--in seven years I haven't had much of a break." It started eating at me a little bit and made me realize, "All right, you know what? Let's try and go to the table here." So Sony and I negotiated for probably eight months. Right after II finished, I opened discussions up. And I really wanted to find a way that we could all get on the same page and just find something that was comparable for both of us, since I had been living sort of under the comfort of Sony for so long.

That's interesting. Obviously, I know that the various divisions of Sony Corp are very siloed. But at the same time, Sony as a whole has a movie studio, an animation studio, a music division, electronics and all these things. So by the end of the negotiations, were you sort of surprised that that in the greater Sony there wasn't a way to come to terms on something that would have that cross-media fertilization that you were looking for; that you needed to leave in order to achieve that?

Yeah. I mean, there was a little bit of that sort of cross-media fertilization that was taking part in [the negotiations]. But I think most of it really dealt with--and what I was really surprised about--was just I wanted to escape the concept of solely being owned by one company. That had me a tad bit uncomfortable, because of all the things that I wanted to be able to do. It had me in a situation of, "Oh, I'd really like to change this. I'd like to figure out a way to not necessarily be in that situation." But the decision I ended up having to make was absolutely not a decision I wanted to make. You know, I was not in a position where I was like, "Yes, I one hundred percent want to get out of here." I was definitely in a situation where I was prepared to do it, but I wanted to see God of War III to its completion. Where I ended up having finished the story and laid out the entire game, I did at least get to see it finished the way that I wanted: the story, the trilogy and the concept of where the game is going to go.

But as far as sort of Sony's multiple silos, the movie "God of War" was picked up by Universal. It wasn't even picked up by Sony Pictures. God of War I and II were released by Capcom in Japan and not Sony. So their separations are pretty strong across all their departments. There isn't much coming together.

Under the current videogame model, which I think for a good portion of the industry--I'm not saying this is something that needs to widely change and be so broad and sweeping that everybody is affected by it instantly, but for the higher up creatives I don't think it's a model that fully works. Because anything you do, anything you think of, it's sort of owned by that parent company that you're working for. You're locked into this concept that if you go over and meet somebody who creatively you're like, "Wow, man I'd love to do something with you; I'd love to consult and just write something for you," you're kind of stuck. You're not really able to do it because if it ever crosses over to any sort of game, you are competing with yourself, because you're owned by that specific parent company.

That was a really long-winded answer, wasn't it?

You know me; I'm long-winded myself.

That's right. [Laughs.] I'm talking to the right man.

Exactly. Now, I'm sure my readers will be wondering--and I myself too even though I've heard some things--what are you going to be doing with George Miller?

Well, right now we don't have anything specific to announce or talk about, but I'm going to probably be working with him on various things; whether they're on the film side or on the videogame side. We're pretty strong on the direction that we want to go in, but we have lots of other ideas that have been kicked around. So that's a "stay tuned." I'd love to talk about something specific, but it's really, really early.

Will you be based in North America, in the U.S., or are you going to be based in--

Oh, I'm based in North America, yeah. A consultant, I guess is a good term to use. I have a lot of people that are solely in the game industry that I've been communicating with and talking to and potentially be doing things with. Right now, nothing is set in stone, but in an ideal world for me I'll be working on three or four projects, and maybe after a year I'll probably get back in the director's chair and do another game. But I think right now, after finishing those two games, the next one I do has to be pretty amazing. It has to be something that I'm really passionate about, that I feel very strongly about.

At Sony, with God of War I and II, I was all in, one hundred percent. There was zero hesitation. At the end of II, I started seeing a lot of the people who I leaned on very heavily--people that I was very, very reliant upon--starting to depart. I lost Derek Daniels, who is an amazing combat guy; he went over to Activision. Charlie Wen, the lead concept artist who was there for God of War I and God of War II, an amazing, amazing concept guy.

And for me, the last straw was Eric Williams, who for all intents and purposes for me was always like an AD [assistant director]; like a second director almost. He's a very technical combat guy. Me and him basically built Kratos on God of War I. We established all the bosses; the way that the whole game felt; what God of War's gameplay from a navigation, combat and platforming perspective felt like. And having lost him on III, that was a defining moment for me to go, "All right, this is not what it was before," even though there's still an incredible team there. Those guys there are amazing and they know everything they're doing, but I really, really enjoyed working with Eric. So for me, working on a project without him was like, "Well, I'm not feeling as strong about it."

Kind of like Steven Spielberg without John Williams?

Exactly. That's a perfect example. If there was a good sort of director-DP [director of photography] team up, it would kind of be something like that. Even though he's not necessarily an aesthetics guy, he is experienced in so many various fields. Plus I have worked with him for nine or ten years, so we have that kind of like brotherly relationship where we can fight and get really angry at each other, but always end up finding a solution within that fight. That's sort of our process, which is good.

If you haven't worked with somebody for very long, it's very hard to get to the meat of something, to have somebody challenge you. He's worked with me for so long that he's not afraid. So when something is stupid, he says, "That's dumb," and when I don't like something of his, it's the same thing. We have a really, really good relationship. He's kind of doing the same thing as me--he's in the consulting field as well and working with various companies--and we're kind of teaming up on a few things so it's good.

And where did Charlie go?

Charlie ended up working on a movie. The name escapes me right now, but apparently it was a remake of something that he's been very passionate about his life. I can't remember the name of the film though, but he is really, really excited about that. Like I think a lot of artists, after a certain point your portfolio becomes solely one thing--he'd been working on God of Warfor probably five and half years and that's pretty much all he was drawing--so I think he really wanted to broaden his horizons a bit more and get some more diversity.

Just to make sure that we're crystal clear on this: you're not an employee or a vice president or anything like that in Miller's operation down in Sydney. You're going to consult with him and work with him on various projects, but you're not an employee, right?

Uh-uh.

Got it.

Not right now, no.

So in plotting out your move to this next phase of your career, did you talk to any of the people who do consulting? People like--and his name escapes me right now--the guy who consults on the Ratchet and the Jak games--

Mark Cerny?

Yeah.

Mark actually was in and out of our offices a lot. I talked to him a little bit, but I made this decision based solely on my negotiations with Sony. It was a measured decision, a calculated decision. But at the same time, while we were in negotiation,; I knew I had to have a stopping point. And I knew from talking to several companies a few months before--the end point I'll call it--that I didn't see any projects out there that I was like, "All right, I want to go and work on this single project right now." There just wasn't anything that was grabbing me. But I realized that I could just work with these people in a short-term capacity, offering some of the things that I have.

So I would say that no, I didn't have too much communication [with other people] about this. In fact, there aren't that many doing people doing consulting right now. There's Dan Arey [formerly] from Naughty Dog; Mark Cerny from Cerny Games; I know Eric is doing it now. And I'm sure there's many other people that I'm just not aware of that are also doing it.

When you look back at the negotiations with Sony and you try look at the things from their perspective, why do you think it couldn't work? The vision that you described, of being able to say, "Hey, I'm going to do X, Y and Z on God of War III,"--and let's say for argument's sake if the God of War series continued you would oversee that, but you would still be free to work with George Miller on the "Babe" game for Wii, and something else with an artist that you met in Santa Monica whose stuff you love--why do you think that couldn't work from Sony's perspective?

Well, one answer to me was--I don't understand why. That was a difficult thing for me to come to terms with, which is why the negotiations went on for so long. I kept trying to find a way. I spent a majority of the time doing a lot of the legwork to figure something out, figure some solution out. But I think it really kind of boils down to this: I don't think they really want to be one of the first or amongst the first grouping of companies to embrace that concept.

The gaming industry as a whole is still grasping onto that old model, which is the, "We get a creative and we own him, so therefore we're going to throw four projects at him, and he's going to work on all four of those. And while it may make us as a whole as a company do really well, that creative is still just an employee." I think that they just weren't ready to embrace something different. There's a lot of legal stipulations as well; labor laws that have to be adhered to. So it always sort of mystified me, but at the same time I guess I can kind of see their side of it: they just really don't want to move in that direction yet. They don't want to accept that that's the way that that's what we're moving towards in the industry.

Take the concept of unpaid overtime. A lot of companies, prior to EA Spouse, were sort of denying that that ever existed or pretending that it wasn't an issue. Then when it became such a very public issue and such a heavily litigious issue as well, everybody kind of said, "Okay, wait a minute. This is a real issue; now we have to kind of deal with it." So I think there probably still are some companies holding into the concept that there isn't a problem with that unpaid overtime issue, but it changed.

I personally don't think that [my leaving Sony Computer Entertainment] is going to be a slap in the face to them or anything like that. That's not what it's meant to be, but--I don't think it's going to make them change immediately, but I do hope that it's best like this; that this is a step in the right direction for everybody in the industry and that more and more people can see that it is something that's feasible. That creatives as a whole need to take a bit more charge of their own careers to ensure that they're getting the best opportunities. That they are challenged and creatively excited. That they are constantly being able to say, "You know what? I'd like to work on this, and I'm going to work on that." I think you're just happier and you're in the end a hell of a lot more creative and passionate when you know that you're steering your own ship.