MTV News' Stephen Totilo Vs. Level Up's N'Gai Croal on Grand Theft Auto IV. Round 2--Fight!

re: MTV News' Stephen Totilo Vs. Level Up's N'Gai Croal on Grand Theft Auto IV. Round 2--Fight!

InfinityDevil — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:49:02 GMT

I prefer exploration, which is why I didn't like Liberty City Stories or Vice City Stories enough to play either of them. I adored San Andreas because of everything you could do.

That said, I'm not the same person I was when San Andreas came out, which is why the emotional punch of GTA4 really helps me recommend it to every Rated-M-aged gamer out there. One of my favorite moments included how when getting missions from a bedridden, hospitalized mob boss later in the game the camera stays on the boss while he coughs and struggles to breathe. We are uncomfortable with that mortality, so is Niko, and the virtual camera staying on that old man when I'm looking at it and asking, silently, to please let me look away makes us think what Niko thinks -- is this where I want to end up, on my deathbed and still fighting crime family wars?

Niko never points to that conversation, but I think it's one that is important to him as a character.

As for another agonizing moment, I'd agree that choosing between the brothers on the park bench really made me stop and think. If I were Niko, who would it be better to have in my corner long-term? Who will be likely to help me get out of bigger trouble down the road? It was a tough decision, and right away it felt wrong based on what Niko says on the phone call, but I didn't go back and choose another path. I kept going.

re: MTV News' Stephen Totilo Vs. Level Up's N'Gai Croal on Grand Theft Auto IV. Round 2--Fight!

Marijn — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:12:19 GMT

@InfinityDevil:

Now that I think about it, this might be the biggest indicator of Rockstar's accomplishments in emotional immersion: that with both who-lives-and-who-dies choices I was subtly nudged toward one of the two choices by the way Niko reacted to the characters. I knew who Niko liked more, and what's more, I agreed with him. I takes some great storytelling to make you want to roleplay the main character perfectly, and whatever the faults of the narrative and characterization, this is one area in which Houser and Benzies acquitted themselves magnificently.

re: MTV News' Stephen Totilo Vs. Level Up's N'Gai Croal on Grand Theft Auto IV. Round 2--Fight!

Ginger Yellow — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:45:19 GMT

I've got to side with Totilo on this one, and I'm someone who really digs the story/characterisation in GTA games. Even so, San Andreas still represents the pinnacle for me. The sheer scope of it, both in "physical" space and in creative possibilities, was unlike any other game, even in the GTA series. I spent ages just driving along the highways, watching the scenery go by. GTA IV just seems more constricted. I love the depth of its characterisation and the detail in Liberty City, but it's not the same. And I have to say I found there were more memorable missions in San Andreas than in IV.

All that said, I don't want Rockstar to abandon the emotional depth of IV, just find a way to accomodate freedom within it. We suspend a lot of disbelief in GTA (the whole wanted star system, to take just one example). It's not so hard to suspend it when we make Niko do something out of character, but it does make us think about our choices. That's a good thing. So give us the freedom to do all sorts of crazy stuff, but take those of us who want it on a journey as well.

re: MTV News' Stephen Totilo Vs. Level Up's N'Gai Croal on Grand Theft Auto IV. Round 2--Fight!

Chico Lou — Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:23:50 GMT

"We are uncomfortable with that mortality, so is Niko, and the virtual camera staying on that old man when I'm looking at it and asking, silently, to please let me look away makes us think what Niko thinks -- is this where I want to end up, on my deathbed and still fighting crime family wars?"

- InfinityDevil

I enjoy reading these Vs. Modes. Usually, I am intrigued enough to go out and buy the game (this happened with Bioshock, and again with Patapon). Again, I find it happening here. The last GTA game I played was III, and I hated it. I thought the graphics were crap, and I thought it was insanely boring. I haven't touched one since, and I don't regret it.

This may change with GTA IV.

I will admit that this Vs. Mode makes the game sound really, really interesting. I find myself wanting to experience all of these missions myself. But above all that, what just sold me on the game is InfinityDevil's quote. I am absolutely fascinated by it. Read his post again, if you must.

I understand the concept of role-playing. This is what actors do all the time: they envision a character, and they imagine how that character might behave in a given situation. You could argue we do this when we empathize with other people, and of course traditional RPGs are (supposedly) based on this concept. But what InfinityDevil is describing is not role-playing - it's the opposite. He didn't imagine what Niko would think, and then react how Niko might - no, InfinityDevil reacted to a situation <i>as himself</i>, then transferred those thoughts and emotions to Niko. InfinityDevil reverse role-played.

That blew my mind, and now I have to play this game. Thank you, InfinityDevil.

re: MTV News' Stephen Totilo Vs. Level Up's N'Gai Croal on Grand Theft Auto IV. Round 2--Fight!

boucaner — Fri, 20 Jun 2008 14:33:45 GMT

As always, this is an entertaining discussion, but it doesn't seem like N'Gai is addressing Stephen's main point. While one has to applaud the interesting choices and situations that Rockstar has put the player in with GTA IV, especially the Playboy X / Dwayne conundrum (for another take, check out http://videogameclaptrap.com/content/whom-to-kill-spolier-alert), the question is, could that have been done while maintaining the freedom of the previous titles? Would Rockstar have been better served creating a new, more story focused and driven franchise? Perhaps there they could have addressed more deeply the issues with Niko's inconsistency. As did N'Gai, I felt somewhat "wrong" in making Niko kill and harm so easily, after getting a feel for the character via the first several cutscenes. The mission requirements still feel very Tommy Vercetti. But could we still have had the best of both worlds?

As for Stephen's argument, one possibility he hasn't seem to considered is his own experience/maturation with the franchise. The feelings that he talks about when first playing Vice City, I felt with GTA III. It was a whole new world of gaming, and we all reveled in it. Rockstar brilliantly crafted things so that players felt like they were defying the game rules, and doing things the weren't supposed to. However, once you have done that, perhaps it has been done. By the time of San Andreas, the thrill of that open world had lessened considerably for me. I had run all over the cities, driven through parks and down sidewalks, raised my star level, and treated hookers badly many times by then. Perhaps Stephen's sense of loss comes less from what the designers may or may not have included in GTA IV, and more from wondering "why isn't this as fun as it used to be?" Everyone knows this feeling all too well; you can't go home again. Maybe this game does include both an epic, emotional story, and a rich, open sandbox world in which to endlessly play, but the experiences and desires of the player make it difficult to see the package in it's entirety.