Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Hiway441 — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:18:34 GMT

None of this matters. It's his desire to earn more than he presently makes that does matter. If in fact he does reach this magical $250,000 mark, he will be punitively taxed, and that's the point.

As far as "spreading the wealth" is concerned, well, wealth is earned. People become "rich" quickly, by unusual circumstance, that is true. But true "wealth" is earned slowly over time, just as Joe "the Plumber"'s plan would play out.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

not.Brit — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:21:47 GMT

It's a little silly that you believe that Joe the Plumber (who is not a plumber) represents "an interesting--and illustrative--paradox," but John McCain having to learn how to use a computer while running a national campaign is somehow off limits.

I'm of the opinion that both subjects matter and both subjects don't matter for the same reason: In context, they both serve to define the opposition candidate. Does the specific policy opinion of Joe Whatshisname actually matter in this race? Not even a little. Does he serve to push the image of Barack Obama as a spread-the-wealth liberal? Of course.

Politics is more than policy, it's the public's perception of policy. If Joe the Plumber gets to play a part in this election, then you must concede that "learning to use the Internet" is just as (ir)relevant.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

wardman — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:25:14 GMT

I think that the issue of what Joe makes now or later is irrelevant. The bigger issue is wealth distribution or as Obama stated “share the wealth”, which is in my opinion wrong. Why crate a society that punishes those hard workers and benefits those that don’t. America can make dreams come true but you have to work hard to achieve them they are not an entitlement! Additionally this article talks about the benefits that Obama would give Joe versus McCain, but fails to talk about the increased cost of living that will suck up far more of Joe’s money. Example if you raise the tax rate on corporations they will do one of or all three of the following. 1 They will set up shop overseas. 2 They will lay off people to counter the increase in taxes. 3 raise their prices to Joe and you and I to pay the difference. I assure you that McCain’s plan will be far greater for America in the long term.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Bill60 — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:29:44 GMT

Of course it matters. We live in the real world, not a hypothetical one. The fact is, Joe the Plumber is violating the state law of Ohio. All plumbers, electricians, Air conditioning workers etc. are required to be licensed in the state of Ohio. He is violating the law when he takes money in return for plumbing work...the same applies to Private investigators, they must be licensed by the state. This licensing protects the consumer and also protects the plumbers that do get the education and pass the exam to be properly licensed. Another requirement is bonding. How would you like Joe the unlicensed plumber who is not bonded to install a gas water heater in your house that because of faulty installation caused your house to burn down or worse yet death of a family member. This guy is a step above 'White Trash", and he should be fined for practicing without a license.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Andy64 — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:29:50 GMT

Quoting Almost Famous? I didn't think I could have liked your blog anymore. I guess I was wrong.

Double plus good points if you use the phrase, show me the money, when talking about the financial crisis. : )

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

AQueryan — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:37:49 GMT

Hiway441,

Your post is so tantalizingly absurd (and aggravating) that I registered just to reply to it.

So according to your hypothetical rationalization, reality doesn't matter as much as one's aspirations.

And so I must presume that, following your desperate, distorted illogic to its ultimate conclusion that there is no upper income bracket that you believe should be taxed more aggressively. Are you implying that were we to raise the "magical" monetary mark from $250,000 to say, 1 billion, that it would be just as unfair to increase the tax rate on the disproportionately small percentage of our nation's citizens who earn a billion dollars a year based on the fact that all non-billionaires aspire to be billionaires themselves? If so, then you're an idiot... and a selfish one at that.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

buzzcowboy — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:37:57 GMT

It was pretty interesting to watch the debates and realize that Joe was about to be of more import in the discussions than Palin or Biden. By the time we were 45 minutes in, there were already a good amount of Joe the Plumber t-shirts... http://blog.cafepress.com/?p=1422

It would seem that even if Joe's company does make that much, the Obama tax cut would still be greater due to the 250K not being his entire taxable income. At least that's what the NYT and a tax attorney told me... hmm.

In any case, for today Joe the Plumber has reached certain fame by inspiring the almighty t-shirt in record time. Way to go, Joe.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

GAColumbia — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:38:04 GMT

This smells like a set-up by the McCain campaign. But why would they make this "Joe the Plumber" their poster boy in their tax argument? The facts say he's firmly in the middle class and would benefit from the Obama tax proposals more than from the McCain proposals, once he settles his tax bill. If he really were, as they suggest, likely to earn more than $250,000 if he "buys the company" how can they expect the poor suffering blue collar schmo to sympathize? It strikes me as tone deafness on the part of the McCain folks.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

koryu88 — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:41:42 GMT

Wow, Mr. Romano, this is an "outstanding" piece of journalism. It stands out because it is awful and sloppy. I just realized why so many people dislike Newsweek and all of its affiliates. The only thing that "trickled-down" is this article. This piece of writing is incredibly opinionated and full of contradiction to fact.

["Then there are the people--like Joe--who earn less than $250,000 a year, but are willing to turn down the bigger tax cut for one of three reasons. Some are trickle-down adherents who believe that larger tax cuts for richer people will stimulate the economy. Others simply don't trust Obama to keep his word. And then there are those who identify with the wealthy, believe they're bound strike it rich someday and don't want to pay higher taxes when they do.'] - your article

[He said, "Is it right to take someone’s money because they work a little harder? It’s taking away from someone’s hard work."

Mr. Wurzelbacher said he disagrees with the idea of people being taxed at a higher rate because they earn more.

"They’re going to take more of your money because you’ve been more successful," he said.]

- The article you refer and link to (voted in the Republican primary) for obviously more than just the information you cited.

The linked article <http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081016/NEWS09/810160418/-1/NEWS> actually quotes "Joe" and it would seem evident to me that he is concerned with the relationship of Obama's socialistic ideas more than the economy itself. I do not think he was concerned with how tax-cuts will stimulate the economy. I think he is concerned by the idea of an economy that relies too heavily on redistribution instead of "free-market" capitalism. Give "average-joe-the-plumber" some credit.

Also your editors and checkers missed this.

["At McCain's prodding, the candidates would up mentioning Wurzelbacher 26 times at Hofstra."]

I think you mean to say "end up mentioning"

By the way, contradictory to what one might assume based on the tone of this comment... I will be casting my vote for Senator Obama as the next President of the United States of America.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

writeray — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:42:34 GMT

Why do you do the math when Obama comes out ahead but lable a $410 difference when McCain comes out ahead as slightly smaller? Numbers fo rone should be numbers for the other.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

writeray — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:44:57 GMT

BTW I support a flat tax.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

ducking sniper fire — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:46:39 GMT

Joe doesn't have a license, has a tax lien, and is a registered republican. He voted in the Ohio Primary as a republican. I read that his brother is the son in law of Charles Keating. WOW another republican plant.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

TheUnrepentantGeek — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:46:51 GMT

I'd like to know if every person who asks Obama a tough question will be treated to this degree of scrutiny. Since the media elite have decided to hold a public trial of "Joe the Plumber" for the unforgivable crime of daring to ask their Messiah a hard question without a license, can we expect this in the future? Is this a taste of what an Obama Presidency will be like?

Furthermore, Is there any reason why people who ask McCain similarly difficult questions don't have their lives put under the microscope? Gee, I wonder why.

Advocacy journalism and the politics of personal destruction at their absolute worst. No wonder this industry is failing.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

koryu88 — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:47:17 GMT

Posted By: AQueryan (October 16, 2008 at 7:37 PM)

Hiway441,

Your post is so tantalizingly absurd (and aggravating) that I registered just to reply to it.

So according to your hypothetical rationalization, reality doesn't matter as much as one's aspirations.

- in short I agree with this person...

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

madman22 — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:51:16 GMT

wardman Why crate a society that punishes those hard workers and benefits those that don’t. Really? People can work their fingers to the bones in this country and still barely get by. I need whatever breaks I can get. I'm in the us army and I work 60 hours a week trying to get by on very little. I doubt that some corporate fat cat has ever worked harder than me one day in their life.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

AQueryan — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:51:34 GMT

wardman,

Forgive me if I'm not at all comforted by your "assurance" that McCain's tax plan will benefit a far greater number of Americans in the long term than that of Mr. Obama's.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

damianmann — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:59:27 GMT

I guess it's no wonder John McCain was so happy to use "Joe the Plumber" as a debate prop last night -- he's a partisan Republican who also happens to be a member of McCain's old friends, the Keating family.

From Martin Eisenstadt:

Turns out that Joe Wurzelbacher from the Toledo event is a close relative of Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio. Who’s Robert Wurzelbacher? Only Charles Keating’s son-in-law and the former senior vice president of American Continental, the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan. The now retired elder Wurzelbacher is also a major contributor to Republican causes giving well over $10,000 in the last few years.

Now I guess we know why Joe is telling the press that Obama is a "socialist" and that the Obama tax plan "infuriated" him. After all, it would hit families like the Keatings and their minions the hardest.

Not to mention that Obama's economic-recovery plan would put the crimps on influence peddlers like McCain's old friends, the Keating Five.

But he sure made for a good one-day story.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

damianmann — Thu, 16 Oct 2008 23:59:54 GMT

http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed2/idUSN1639355520081016

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Nowforthetruth — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 00:09:01 GMT

Baby I'll be there to take your hand,

Baby I'll be there to share the land

That they'll be giving away, when we all live together.

So, in the exchange with "Joe the plumber" we find out that Obama really is as radical as his early political acquaintances, and is into the failed economic policy of wealth redistribution. Yahoo, back to the 70's we go! So now we know that an Obama presidency really would be as if it were Carter's lost second term after all.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

rb21177 — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 00:12:45 GMT

Now we know why America can elect another George Bush. The average American has visions of grandeur (Joe thinks he is going to buy his business), he is poorly informed (He does not know he would be better off under Obama’s tax proposals) and he is certainly not an honest, hard working old style American. He is the new American, dishonest (He does not have plumbers license) and not civic minded (He does not pay his taxes). The faster all citizens of the world can vote in US elections the better for us all. We cannot trust the average US Joe to do the right thing.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

TheUnrepentantGeek — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 00:14:04 GMT

The real story is Obama's answer to the man's question.

The furious dirt digging surrounding the question should be revealing. But I suppose if you're so in the tank for "The One" that you don't care how scary this behavior is not much will matter to you. In Glorious People's Republik of America, news reports YOU!

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

dallastexasga — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 00:24:21 GMT

TheUnrepentantGeek:

"I'd like to know if every person who asks Obama a tough question will be treated to this degree of scrutiny. Since the media elite have decided to hold a public trial of "Joe the Plumber" for the unforgivable crime of daring to ask their Messiah a hard question without a license, can we expect this in the future? Is this a taste of what an Obama Presidency will be like?

Furthermore, Is there any reason why people who ask McCain similarly difficult questions don't have their lives put under the microscope? Gee, I wonder why."

Ummm okay UnrepentantGeek, was it Obama or McCain who KEPT bringing the guy up in the first place?!? He is not getting his life put under a microscope b/c the liberal media decided to, but because your 'hero' kept mentioning him on oh maybe national television on the last debate. who else did they mention specifically?

I should not even be responding to a comment such as yours but I just feel the need sometimes to help those confident enough in their ignorance to put it out- in all its glory for others to see...aka us. SO if Obama HAD stalked McCain and found someone that McCain had had a conversation with that did not agree with him, then talk about it and waste precious time on the final debate, then I'm SURE the media would be all over that too.

Wow I bet you agree that Obama has been stealing votes too huh??!?!

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

MAZees — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 00:28:51 GMT

So Joe the Plumber represents the "pretending-that-I'm-a-plumber-imminently-buying-a-small-$250K-profit-business-so-Obama's-plan-doesn't-work-for-me-even-though-all-of-that-isn't-true demographic. Population: 1.

Bottom line: Obama's plan is more beneficial to 98% of small businesses, and less beneficial to 2%. How is this in any way "radical"? Hasn't the more "radical" thing over the past decade been to give the greatest breaks to the top 2%, and the least breaks to the bottom 98%?

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Bill60 — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 00:38:05 GMT

Nowforthetruth ,

Funny you would have the name "now for the truth", when GM stock is at the same price it was in 1950, and we are going through the worst economic crash since the 1930s. What flavor of Republican Koolaid do you drink? Obama will win this election, and for once we will have a real statesman in the white house, who we bring honor, integrity and follow the checks and balances that Madison spoke of that are required to make or democratic republic and the economy work the way that it should. Imagine if we just let teachers do what ever they wanted in the classroom in the name of educating our children, not to be held to any starndards, any type of checks and balances. Do you think that are kids would be in better or worse shape? The smoke and mirrors show of the republican party is over!

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Nowforthetruth — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 01:07:53 GMT

Bill60: Even Bill Clinton points to liberal Congressional Democrats’ protection of Fannie and Freddie from scrutiny as a primary cause of the current economic meltdown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsynspIqAoE

To prove Bill Clinton's point, this is a link to a C-SPAN video clip of the Congressional hearings at roughly the time McCains attempt at S.190. to fix fannie and freddie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs

The link below contains a purported list of the top 25 in Congress who got contributions from the folks at Fannie and Freddie. Obama is listed third, after Dodd and Kerry, even though Obama is just a junior Senator. Obama is followed next by Clinton. Barney Frank and Nancy Pelosi are on the list as well.

http://www.investors.com/editorial/IBDArticles.asp?artsec=16&artnum=1&issue=20080918

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

vstillwell — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 02:10:47 GMT

As a Gen Xer, I had great hope for my generation. Then came Joe the Plummer. You would think growing up through the horrific recessions of the eighties and the relative prosperity of the ninties would shape your political thinking. I guess Joe doesn't do the thinking thing.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

benjtsang — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 02:18:06 GMT

If McCain keeps parroting this idiot Joe at campaign rallies and the like, I have a feeling its gonna come back to haunt him.

So Joe the Plumber is worried he will get taxed more if he buys this plumbing business...EXCEPT, his name ain't Joe, hes not really a plumber, he doesn't pay taxes anyway, and even IF he did somehow manage to buy the business, he wouldn't even be paying more taxes. Not to mention its very unlikely that this 2 man plumbing business could be making $250,000 profit, or even revenue, which makes him Joe the Liar instead.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

kels2 — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 02:23:13 GMT

In the last 8 years, millions of people who could pay their mortgages have lost their jobs. Companies like Enron, World.com, banks, national chains, and utilities, airlines so many more companies have gone under or merged- thanks to the horrific corporate greed encouraged by this administration under this president's reign. As a result of losing so many jobs, so many people cannot find jobs and cannot meet their mortgages. Everyone knows someone. These are good people. There are millions of them. Don't blame them for this downfall. Put the blame exactly where it belongs. At the top...he has brought us all to our knees. Say hello to the aftermath of his "trickle- down- effect "economics.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

elo8 — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 02:25:20 GMT

Dr. Tantillo, who has a marketing/brand blog ( http://blog.marketingdoctor.tv) did a post at the end of last week did a post at the end of last week on the demise of John McCain's brand.

"John McCain has a serious marketing problem. It’s more than just coherence; it’s about forgetting your Target Market."

To my mind, McCain's use of Joe-The-Plumber as a hackneyed crutch was a poor, grasping-in-the-dark attempt to reach his supposed Target Market.

Hopefully, "Joe" and others like him read at least one of the articles out there that sets the tax plans straight for them so they are at least voting for the candidate/tax plan they think they are.

Tantillo's full post: http://blog.marketingdoctor.tv/2008/10/12/brand-winners-and-losers.aspx

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

CliffyWorld — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 02:30:36 GMT

For additional information, read the related article title: "Joe the plumber gets flushed to Nottingham" at http://www.cliffyworld.com/blogs

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

jiml1956 — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 03:00:51 GMT

Andrew, a little off topic, but try putting Jim Hensley into a post at HuffingtonPost.com and see what happens. They delete any comment I make about Cindy's dad.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

glit24 — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 04:47:35 GMT

Another mistake on McCain's part. This fast thinking without breathing is dangerous for America. McCain demonstrated that he had studied Joe the Plumber with the way he correctly pronounced his complicated last name during the debate. Like his choice of Palin this was a one-man decision of the maverick. Did he check the background of his so Joe the Plumber before placing his cause in the ad? He gains the vote of Joe the Plumber and loses mine. America should not be tossed like a tennis ball. We need some sanity. Joe the Plumber is not patriotic by not paying taxes or liens. I think by now some talk show has paid him some money for interview. He should take the money and run. Hopeful he will pay what he owes to the people of America.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

rpbncb — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 13:16:40 GMT

John McCain acted like a snotty little first grader without manners in the debate!! Moderator should have told him to behave or stand in the corner. He was just plain rude and out of touch regarding the real issues facing this country.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

RockRibbedConservative — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 13:24:47 GMT

Rude? Obama was a second grader with all of the ruuber faces he was making and interrupting John and taking more time than he was entitled to.

BTW he was lying about ACORN, Ayers and any and all 'Tax Cuts" that he was going to give you.

Remember the infamous "Middle Class Tax Cut" of Bill Clinton?

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

TomTraubert — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 13:32:52 GMT

You are leaving out the "stupidity" factor. Mr. Wurzelbacher is a registered Republican. And you'd have to be really really stupid to prefer John McCain's tax plan to Obama's, unles you are a multi-millionaire. Presumably Mr. Wurzelbacher knows he isn't a multi-millionaire now, and won't be in the next several years.

So he intends to vote to extend tax cuts for those who are far, far above him in income while voting to raise taxes on himself. I'd call that pretty stupid, but what do you expect, he's a Republican.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

DaveWK — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 15:26:01 GMT

The McCain campaign blows it again. Here are the objective facts: Joe isn't his real name; he isn't a real licenced plummer; he currently would benefit from Obama's tax plan far more than from McCain's; even if he bought the business he works for (which isn't actually in the works), he'd still benefit more under Obama's plan.

McCain can't win, and shouldn't. Obama's tax plan is far more fair and generous to 95% of us.

As an aside, it seems the vast majority of viewers of the debate found Obama more polite and poised than McCain. Most viewers perceived McCain as aggressive, at times sarcastic, and generally angry. This is his MO, and why Republican Senator Thad Cochran said that the thought of this erratic gentleman as president made his blood run cold.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

bluebloodedLV — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 16:35:29 GMT

RockRibbedConservative:

Obama NEVER once interrputed McCain - watch it again dude. Secondly, you repubs keep saying Obama is lying about Ayers and ACORN. Prove it! Talk is cheap - not one of you on these blogs since the debate has been able to prove that he's lying. You keep saying it though, so you must have some information that the rest of the world doesn't.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

lingram — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 17:09:43 GMT

What I would like to know is-where and how did McCain find out about this guy .If he is such a conservative, why was he at an Obama rally in the first place? It sounds awfully fishy to me.

I wonder how much it cost McCain's campaign to dig old Joe the unplumber up.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Indio89 — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:02:46 GMT

McCain is quick to pick this guy and like Palin have something for the media to dig about.The joe sixpacks and the all the other references are getting pretty old really fast.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Jim Johnson — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:04:00 GMT

Obama's view of the future of America - Socialism which is the next step to Communism!! He admitted to Joe the Plumber than he wanted to spread the wealth! He said that he wanted to make everyone equal! Is America ready for Socialism? The Iranian president, Ahmadinejad, said today that he is glad to see the end to capitalism in America!! Are you glad?????

=====================================================================================

Under socialism a ruling class of intellectuals, bureaucrats and social planners decide what people want or what is good for society and then use the coercive power of the State to regulate, tax, and redistribute the wealth of those who work for a living. In other words, socialism is a form of legalized theft.

The morality of socialism can be summed-up in two words: envy and self-sacrifice. Envy is the desire to not only possess another's wealth but also the desire to see another's wealth lowered to the level of one's own. Socialism's teaching on self-sacrifice was nicely summarized by two of its greatest defenders, Hermann Goering and Bennito Mussolini. The highest principle of Nazism (National Socialism), said Goering, is: "Common good comes before private good." Fascism, said

Mussolini, is "a life in which the individual, through the sacrifice of his own private interests??realizes that completely spiritual existence in which his value as a man lies."

Socialism is the social system which institutionalizes envy and self-sacrifice: It is the social system which uses compulsion and the organized violence of the State to expropriate wealth from the producer class for its redistribution to the parasitical class.

Despite the intellectuals' psychotic hatred of capitalism, it is the only moral and just social system.

Capitalism is the only moral system because it requires human beings to deal with one another as traders--that is, as free moral agents trading and selling goods and services on the basis of mutual consent.

Capitalism is the only just system because the sole criterion that determines the value of thing exchanged is the free, voluntary, universal judgement of the consumer. Coercion and fraud are anathema to the free-market system.

It is both moral and just because the degree to which man rises or falls in society is determined by the degree to which he uses his mind. Capitalism is the only social system that rewards merit, ability and achievement, regardless of one's birth or station in life.

Yes, there are winners and losers in capitalism. The winners are those who are honest, industrious, thoughtful, prudent, frugal, responsible, disciplined, and efficient. The losers are those who are shiftless, lazy, imprudent, extravagant, negligent, impractical, and inefficient. [What about the role of luckbeing in the right place at the right time or the wrong place at the wrong time? R. R. Pope}

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Jim Johnson — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:08:00 GMT

Romano is an idiot. The point is not whether Joe the plumber is a real person or not. It was Obama's response that should scare the hell out of Americans. He wants to redistribute wealth which is a Socialist idea. Socialism is the next step to Communism. I am proud of Joe for bringing out Obama's real beliefs in shaping out society. You should be proud of him.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Jim Johnson — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:09:47 GMT

For the Obama idiots that don't know. Obama's remarks to Joe the plumber was all over television. I saw it so I guess McCain could see it also!

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Matador68 — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:22:09 GMT

To me the thing that Joe illustrates is how many Americans are ignorant of basic financial information. For example, he assumed that the plumbing business, apparently being worth $250k would be taxed on that amount. Ignorant statement number one. Second, many assumed Joe meant that the company’s revenue is $250k and he would be taxed on that, which still misses the point that it’s an income tax, not a sales tax. If McCain wants to get more mileage out of Joe, he should propose a sweeping response to the current economic crisis: investing in financial education for the millions of ignorant Americans who do not know the difference between revenue, income, and net worth. Oh, but wait, that wouldn’t be good for McCain’s party, would it?

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

wyomingite — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:34:33 GMT

John McCain's handlers have told him to make a big deal of Joe the unlicensed, registered Republican, 40K per yr plumber. I am surprised that, after it was discovered that even if he did buy the business, Joe would pay less in taxes under the Obama plan, McCain's handlers still scirpt these talking points: grasp onto the soundbite of "spread the wealth" in order to suggest that Obama is Communist. The math is what it is: Joe and I and so many other Americans will pay lower taxes under Obama. I thought lower taxes for the middle class was a good thing. Now the REpubs are arguing that this is socialism. What happened to the "I'll work for Joe six-pack" strategy?

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Jose52 — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:40:58 GMT

Joe the plumber, Has changed the spin. The actual story is Obama's

spreading the weath. Romy never discussed the Marxist theology that

obama's taxing plan during these critical times will send us into a

depression. Obama, with the dems, voted 92 times to increase taxes

and now since he wants to get elected, everyone and MSM belives his

lies.

No ties to Acorn.

No ties to Ayers, just a guy in his hood.

Never heard Rev wright say anything wrong or racist.

Never should have accepted Rezco's money.

Never should have gave ACORN $800,000 the push thier dem voter fraud agenda.

If I left someone out, please pardon me.

Obama is a liar with too much chicago thug baggage. If you are in the middle of your

decision, think how one American with a simple question has been villified by the media.

Obama will take your money and spread it around to the needs of many. Ayers, ACORN,

and on...and on...

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

DaveWK — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 20:56:40 GMT

Here again are the objective facts: Joe isn't his real name; he isn't a real licenced plummer; he currently would benefit from Obama's tax plan far more than from McCain's; even if he bought the business he works for (which isn't actually in the works), he'd still benefit more under Obama's plan.

McCain can't win, and shouldn't. Obama's tax plan is far more fair and generous to 95% of us.

Obama's comments to "Joe," refered to below, hardly amount to socialism, but instead were consistent with an appropriate progressive tax system. Most people believe that those with income above $250,000 ought to pay somewhat higher taxes on those higher earnings. Anyone whose income is under that amount would be voting against his or her own interests by voting for McCain.

And again, as there has been no real answer to this observation: it seems the vast majority of viewers of the debate found Obama more polite and poised than McCain. Most viewers perceived McCain as aggressive, at times sarcastic, and generally angry. This is his MO, and why Republican Senator Thad Cochran said that the thought of this erratic gentleman as president made his blood run cold.

As some of the comments below reflect, baseless name calling seems the exclusive province of the right wing. Witness McCain and his supporters branding Obama a "liar" over Bill Ayers, but when asked to document the same, they cannot. As McCain is learning, this kind of vitriol serves to alienate all but those who are already passionately on your side.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

brandonjim — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 21:02:12 GMT

It would be better to ask, "Why Joe the Plumber doesn't matter?" Joe got his fifteen minutes of fame and that should be the end of it. Why? He is obviously ignorant of both candidates economic plans for the blue collar and small business owner. (One in the same in most cases) Or, he's like most republicans... He hears but does not listen. We can all hope that something will be done about the economy and I think that Obama will be able to implement his better than McCain. Why? No matter who becomes president of our great country he'll have to get any plan passed through the senate and the congress. McCain seems to like to aleinate himself. Whereas, Obama is one that, I believe, will be able to pull the ranks together and get results. Republicans for Obama "08"

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

DaveWK — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 21:36:26 GMT

An interesting attempt by "Nowforthetruth" (quite a pretentious tag) to rewrite the history of the depression while simultaneously fantasizing about the coming Republican wipeout. You're correct that there will be a Republican wipeout in the presidential and congressional races, but not in the sense you mean. But perhaps you should contact the McCain campaign and tell them to revserse course and get back into Wisconsin, Michigan, and Iowa. Forget about campaigning in Florida and Virginia. Victory is at hand!

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Sam10 — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 22:41:19 GMT

Yes, I agree. Obama is the only one that, if elected will pull all ranks together- into a depression. His plan to distribute all money to the government is unamerican. With Pelosi and Reid by his side, America would not survive his first year in office. It's one thing to be a loyal democrat. But in times like these, American can not afford to have a socialist platform implemented. If anything, elect John McCain to hold back Pelosi and Reid. Obama is dangerous in the Senate. If elected president be prepared for the worst economic time America has faced. Look at Obama's record, at leaset that way you will have no regrets once you see and understand how much of a danger Obama really is.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

notunderage — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 23:06:45 GMT

Once again, McCain's reference to a nobody who misled the public with his figures, backfired. Before you quote someone you should get the facts straight.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

wardman — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 23:24:01 GMT

Madman22

First off let me thank you for your service to this country. I venture a guess though that you do not work 60 hours a week, you work more like 168 hours having to always be ready to do what is asked of you.

I like you want breaks but I don’t want entitlements please do not confuse the two. There is a lot of hard working Americans that just get by and I like most Americans would gladly help give breaks to those people if they are able to. But There are far too many people out there that ask What can my country do for me and not what can I do for my country. From my forty years of life experience I found that most people who work hard will succeed in America, those that expect it don’t.

AQueryan

I am very sorry to see that my assurance doesn’t give you the warm fuzzies, but simply stated facts are facts. These facts are simple Corporations do not pay taxes they make you pay them. As their cost go up they pass them along to you and I either by layoffs, price increases, moving their operations to locations that don’t cost or charge as much (Overseas), or all of the above. Those are facts; in a recession the worst thing you can do is bite the hand that feeds you. They tried in the late 1920’s and early 1930’s and sent inflation out of control forcing the USA into a depression. Facts are that Obama has said he will raise taxes on those corporations that employee lots of hard working people. So remember that when more jobs leave and inflation grows out of control that at least you have a little bit more money in your pocket that is assuming that you were not one of those unfortunate persons laid off. But look at the bright you will still receive socialized health care.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Sam10 — Fri, 17 Oct 2008 23:33:25 GMT

Don't attack Joe the plumber. Obama attacked Joe the plumber. Yes, he is not a plumber. He did not say he was a plumber, he mentoned he wanted to buy a plumbing company. You can attack Obama's message though. In America, we work to make better for ourselves. It is Un- American to take someones's hard earned money just to have the government decide where it goes. it's bad enough fighting the IRS every year, and now to have to fight a politican where he decides where to allocate my money. We do not have to go thru that. Elect John McCain.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

bbhood@mindspring.com — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 00:09:32 GMT

Sam10: So Obama attacked Joe the Plumber???? What are you talking about? From what I saw, Obama answered his question, taking what Joe said about his situation at face value. Of course it turned out NOT to be the truth. A salary of $40,000 where he actually will benefit hugely from Obama's tax plan. And a plumbing business bringing in less than $100,000 in revenue with net income probably much less will also benefit from Obama's plan. Joe the Plumber must be sorry he ever brought it up, but it was MCCAIN who brought Joe into the national spotlight (and public scrutiny) without even asking him if it was o.k. Or if his story was even true. How can anyone in their right mind blame Obama for this?

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Bob in Ohio AKA VietVet4Obama — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 02:35:56 GMT

It seems that Sen. McCain vetted this story to about the same extent that he vetted his running mate ... 'Nuff said!

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

CliffyWorld — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 02:40:15 GMT

Please read the related article titled "Joe the plumber gets flushed to Nottingham" at http://www.cliffyworld.com/blogs

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Bob in Ohio AKA VietVet4Obama — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 02:46:57 GMT

Sam10

Sam10:wrote

It is Un- American to take someones's hard earned money just to have the government decide where it goes.

WOW!!! Where have you been ... that is exactly what has happened under any tax ever imposed on anyone through the course of human history!!

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Ohio for McCain/Palin!!!! — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 03:22:56 GMT

There Obama goes again. When he cannot be confronted on the truth, he tries to discredit the person, just like Palin. I am so sick of Obama! Obama should be more giving of his own money. Oh, I forgot, he gave it to Acorn for voter registration. He is nothing but a crook! I cannot stand to even look at him!!!!!

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

UnaffiliatedIndie — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 05:07:13 GMT

Forget the character attacks, however deserved or not. Let’s deal with the actual issue that was raised. Here’s a relevant excerpt from the (very) conservative Wall Street Journal article of OCTOBER 17, 2008, 'As Joe the Plumber Grows Famous, the Politics Get Murkier':

"To reach a level that would be affected by Sen. Obama’s proposed tax increase, Mr. Smither said, a mom-and-pop plumbing company like Newell would have to clear $5 million in annual sales. [Joe’s company actually reports only $100,000 in sales.]

Even if Mr. Wurzelbacher reaped taxable income from his business of $280,000 a

year, he'd pay only about $900 more a year in taxes under Sen. Obama's plan, which

would raise the tax rate on the income between $250,000 and $280,000 to 36%

from 33%.

[...]

If Mr. Wurzelbacher earns the wages of a typical Ohio plumber, $40,600, and holds a $90,000 mortgage, he would see a TAX CUT (emphasis added) under Sen. Obama's plan of more than $1,000, compared with no tax reduction under Sen. McCain's.

If he succeeds in buying the plumbing business where he works, he could see even more tax benefits, including Sen. Obama's proposed elimination of capital-gains taxes for small-business investment, a 50% tax credit to purchase health insurance for employees and a $3,000 tax credit for every new hire over the next two years."

Yep … facts are pesky things.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Jim Johnson — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 05:52:56 GMT

====================================================================================================

Mussolini, is "a life in which the individual, through the sacrifice of his own private interests??realizes that completely spiritual existence in which his value as a man lies."

Despite the intellectuals' psychotic hatred of capitalism, it is the only moral and just social system.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Jim Johnson — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 05:53:29 GMT

====================================================================================================

Mussolini, is "a life in which the individual, through the sacrifice of his own private interests??realizes that completely spiritual existence in which his value as a man lies."

Despite the intellectuals' psychotic hatred of capitalism, it is the only moral and just social system.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

joeranger — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 09:27:06 GMT

shame on Obama. Now he make fun of Joe the plumber . The media thrashing of Joe is shameful. America was built on dreams and self reliance. Not weath redistribution by Barry to his chosen leftist few (ACORN)? All you lib trust fund babies should turn over your money and cars to Barry , the ONE, as soon as possible. Why wait for the election? Do it now!

barry will spread misery thoughout America, when people canont pursue the thier dreams. The Soviet Union collapsed. Why can't barry's USSamerika fall to all his lies and promises. This marxist loser cannot be trusted! HRC says he gives a good speech.

McCain!

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

joeranger — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 09:27:43 GMT

McCain!

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

tmaker — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 15:05:52 GMT

Have you seen Joe the Plumbers Economic Plan?

“America’s Self Preservation Plan”

By Joe the Plumber

As our government meets with congress to develop a “Financial Rescue Package” for our economy and Obama talks about raising our taxes, let me make it quick and easy for them by giving them what I feel is the Plumbers Plan.

America’s Self Preservation Plan

This Plan is so easy and I guarantee it will end our recession quickly, boost the economy, increase the world value of the US dollar, significantly reduce global warming and the US carbon footprint, eliminate our dependency on foreign fossil fuels, create jobs, reduce wars saving lives, reduce hunger, keep US wealth in America, and make history and all of this by 9-11-2011.

You may be saying to yourself, this is not possible; no simple plumber can ever come up with a plan which achieves all of these great things while congress is stagnated, it would be too good to be true and difficult to implement!

Well, you are all wrong, this plan is so easy and simple, it can be achieved by the American people making only one decision in their life, without spending a dime, with little effort, in fact, it will probably save you money for you.

Believe me this plan is fool proof or I will never snake a toilet again.

How can this be done? Well here is my simple plan in one sentence

1. Park your gas vehicle for good and purchase a compressed air car within the next year or at least put one on order, it will not cost you a dime more than your spending now, it basically will be free. (Read on this plan will make total sense soon, I promises or I will quite the plumbers union.)

How can this be the whole plan? Simple, these cars will be for sale in the US beginning in 2009. These cars will cost approximately $16,000.00 but, as I said, it will not cost you a dime more than you’re paying not for transportation. You will pay for this car over the next 3 years with the extra money you will save ($200 to $400/month) by not fueling your gasoline powered vehicle. Compressed air cars can travel up to 90 mph and approximately 125 miles on a $2.00 tank of compressed air. (Google search compressed air cars for more details on this technology), but I am not here to promote any particular car manufacturer, I am here to explain how my simple economic plan if fool proof.

If we all purchase ( again, no real cost purchase) these cars at the same time this out cry of the American people will force the government into providing tax breaks and credits, incentives and low interest financing. (Did I say tax credit Mr. Obama?) Banks and car manufacturers will look at these loans as safe investment and will easily grant them to the consumers but in won’t really matter to us because these cars are fairly inexpensive and will not cost you any more out of pocket money then you are currently sending fueling your gas vehicle. In fact, most people will save money and be driving a new environmentally friendly, green vehicle for free.

With the extra money in our pocket, the consumers can purchase a small compressed air refueling system for their home from their local compressed gas/propane Plumber. You can also just plug in your vehicle over night and it will recharge by it self. Gas stations may not cooperate with the transition of their tanks and pumps from gasoline to compressed air so the government may need to aid in pushing through simple regulation for compressed air home refueling systems along with financing and incentives for localized compressed air refueling stations to speed up the process.

That’s it! “The America’s Self Preservation Plan”, how easy was that? A plumber figured it out!

Now you’re asking yourself, how will this no cost purchase of these cars by the American people achieve all of the great things I stated in my opening paragraph?

Easy and here is how it wills all falls into place!

1. The end of our recession and a boost for the economy: most car driving American families I know are spending between $50 to $100 dollars a week in gas refueling, minimum. This equates to $200 to $400 dollars for gas minimum per month. This money is substantial and in not going into the American economy. Most of the money is going overseas making a few people very wealthy. These very wealthy people have too much money with little needs, they do not live in the US and therefore they are not putting it back into the American economy. If consumers, instead of rich oil lords, are saving this money and putting it into the American economy it will result in a proven continuous stimulus package. Consumers will spend the extra money on home purchases, renovations, electronics, cars, vacations, air travel, investments, cure cancer, heart disease more plumbing supplies etc. Most importantly the cost of oil per barrel will begin to plunge drastically to compensate for the surplus in world oil, reducing gas prices at our pumps. The reduction of gas prices will further help the economy and aid in the transition phase to total compressed air transportation. Other technologies such as generators and heating system boilers etc will emerge from the compressed air technology reducing oil dependencies further.

2. Increased value of the US dollar: Once the US starts climbing out of the recession and the price of oil per barrel starts to fall the value of the US dollar will increase, basic economics. Quality of life will be better; as US citizen can then return to traveling once more out side of the country.

3. Reduced global warming and US carbon footprint: These cars have zero emissions! The US consumes the majority of the world fossil fuels resulting in significant US pollution and emissions. I understand that you need to consume fossil fuels to produce compressed air but this type of generation produces far less emissions and can be regulated easier. Power to manufacture compressed air can also be produced by alternate energies such as nuclear, coal, hydro-electric, solar, fuel cells, cogeneration, wind generation, bio plant, wave generation etc, all American made self supported technologies. Let’s not forget the reduction of oil spill risk and disasters which involve costly environmental clean up, reduced off shore drilling and terrible affects oil spills have on habitats. By the way, does anyone really know what the effect of removing all of this oil from the ground is doing to our planet? What about the energy saving resulting from not having to pump the oil from the fields, transferring of oil to gas stations buy trucks and tankers etc?

4. Eliminate our dependency on foreign fossil fuels: If the majority of us purchase compressed air cars this will force all US car manufacturers to get into this arena and other transportation vehicles such as trucks boats etc will soon follow eventually eliminating the need for foreign fossil fuel dependency.

5. Create jobs: Compressed air home or centralized refueling stations will need to be installed, plumbed and built, all US car manufacturers will need to get hire labor and get into production of compressed air vehicles very quickly. Why do you think American’s buy foreign cars? It’s because they get better gas mileage and the vehicles are more dependable! Well, all compressed cars will get great MPG’s and the US car manufacturers will be forced into producing a dependable engine and vehicle. I was in the manufacturing field for many years and I know these cars can be produced within a short period to time.

6. Reduce wars and save lives: If you think 9-11-2001 and our current crisis in the Middle East is not because of oil terrorism you have been living under a rock. Our young men are being killed and permanently damaged because we are dependant upon oil.

7. Reduce Hunger: Corn field and oil fields used for energy can be farmed to produce more food for the hungry. There are hundreds of thousands of acres of land not producing food, why. The Government can offer more farm-aid for this transition.

8. Keep US wealth in America. Yes we have witnessed history in the making twice in less then 10 years. 9-11-2001 and 2008, right now. For those of you who are not aware of the situation, US wealth is exiting our shores faster then it has ever done before in our history. Many wealthy people, investors etc are leaving the country to protect their $$ investments due to high taxes, low dollar value etc. This combined with the high foreign oil prices is resulting in our countries wealth exiting our boarders at a rate never seen before in history. Yes, if you have not figured it out oil controls our economy and foreign oil lords are in the driving seat, pretty frightening.

I hope I made all of you a believer in my plan, its fool proof. I am not a politician, lobbyist; writer, I am not associated with compressed air car manufacturers. I am a plumber by profession. I am married with a family, an American concerned with all of the current issues which face us today in the US. My father and grandfathers fought and died for this country. My family has worked in the plumbing industry and was part of the “Great Industrial Revolution” which built this country and put us on top as a world power. Our generation is now in control of this country and it is our turn to make History with this simple plan.

I can say one thing for what it’s worth; I guarantee this plan will work, with no new taxes Obama, but it will take all of us to believe. If we fight together the results will be real with little to no effort or financial burden to all of us Americans. If we do our part in purchasing these types of vehicles this year the rest will fall into place I guarantee it.

I said my plan will take approximately 3 year to be fully implemented although results will be seen almost immediately.

Let’s set a date to be oil independent, it is appropriate to set it for 9-11-2011 on the 10th anniversary of a historic tragedy. This day will go down in History as “Oil Independence Day”, the day the American people fought back and achieved independent from foreign oil and tool back control of our country and economy. We should do this for our children’s future and in honor and memory of all of the victims of oil related wars and terrorism.

Thank you for your time.

“American’s Self Preservation Plan.”

God Bless the American Plumbing Union

Joe the Plumber

End

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

stephen50 — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 15:35:59 GMT

ANATOMY OF A SMALL BUSINESS

Started out as a one man operation. Income after expenses before taxes about $90,000. After taxes about $50,000. 60 hours per week.

Hired 3 workers. Income before taxes about $150,000. After taxes about $90,000. 80 hours per week. I'm now responsible for their families and mine. They work hard for me and I work hard for them. When things are slow they do busy work and I bid jobs b at or below cost to keep cash flow. When things are busy they work hard and love the over time pay.

I want my business to grow. I hire more workers. I advertise more. Sometimes I have to have some employees do busy work so I can get the jobs when the work is there. My business grows. 80 howrs per week.

I have 12 workers. Most of my work is now sales and managing. New workers add little to the bottom line due to training and idle time but I want to continue to grow my business and some day become a big business. I realize that to do this, I give up something up front, to make it up down the road. Income before taxes about $350,000. After taxes $210.000. 80 hours per week.

I own a boat and a bigger home and my kids are getting ready to go to college. Life is good.

I make Over $250,000 per year. My taxes are going up. After taxes I will now take home $175,000.

I have lots of jobs to keep 8 guys busy at maximum full profit per job. I lay off 4 worker. I do some of the work on the road my self when needed. Income before taxes $250,000. After taxes $150,000. 60 hours per week.

I won't really miss the $25,000. It was being plowed back into the business any way. I felt badly laying off those 4 guys. Their families will suffer I know. A shame they don't have incomes so they could have lower taxes. I guess that means they don't have that money to save and start their own business. Pitty I had to tell the 2 people I was planning to hire that I no longer could. I don't think I will need to reduce the benefits for the rest of my workers - health care, 401-k, vacation and holiday pay. I did have to eliminate the company outing and Christmas party though.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Earl W — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 15:47:18 GMT

Oh, Yes - Now attack Joe the plumber. Anybody who opposes Nobama alais *** is ridaculed. Way to go press corps.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Earl W — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 15:47:20 GMT

Oh, Yes - Now attack Joe the plumber. Anybody who opposes Nobama alais *** is ridaculed. Way to go press corps.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Earl W — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 15:47:20 GMT

Oh, Yes - Now attack Joe the plumber. Anybody who opposes Nobama alais *** is ridaculed. Way to go press corps.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Sam10 — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 16:00:16 GMT

As a journalist and non partisan, wouldn't it be prudent to examine the Obama plan and what it would do to small business owners who have worked to put their company in this catergory. Research and explain with rationale that Obama's socialist views are in contrast to the American dream.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Jim Johnson — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 17:50:09 GMT

====================================================================================================

Mussolini, is "a life in which the individual, through the sacrifice of his own private interests??realizes that completely spiritual existence in which his value as a man lies."

Despite the intellectuals' psychotic hatred of capitalism, it is the only moral and just social system.

Yes, there are winners and losers in capitalism. The winners are those who are honest, industrious, thoughtful, prudent, frugal, responsible, disciplined, and efficient. The losers are those who are shiftless, lazy, imprudent, extravagant, negligent, impractical, and inefficient. [What about the role of luck being in the right place at the right time or the wrong place at the wrong time? R. R. Pope}

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Jim Johnson — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 17:50:33 GMT

Everyone of voting age should read these two books written by Obama, 'Dreams of My Father' and 'Audacity of Hope'. Don't buy them, get them from the library before they are removed from the shelves.

From 'Dreams of My Father', "I ceased to advertise my mother's race at the age of 12 or 13, when I began to suspect that by doing so I was ingratiating myself to whites."

From 'Dreams of My Father', "'I found a solace in nursing a pervasive sense of grievance and animosity against my mother's race."

From 'Dreams of My Father', "There was something about him that made me wary, a little too sure of himself, maybe. And white."

From 'Dreams of My Father', "It remained necessary to prove which side you were on, to show your loyalty to the black masses, to strike out and name names."

From 'Dreams of My Father', "I never emulate WHITE men and BROWN men whose fates didn't speak to my own. It was into my father's image, the black man, son of Africa , that I'd packed all the attributes I sought in myself , the attributes of Martin and Malcolm, DuBois and Mandela."

And FINALLY the Most Damning one of ALL of them!!!

From 'Audacity of Hope', "I will stand with the Muslims should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

cbnboy1974 — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 18:50:08 GMT

That is such BS! Joe the plumber did not even turn out to be who Mccain introduced him to be. Ofcourse we find out he does NOT have a plumbers license AND owes taxes AND does not even make over 200,000k let alone 250k.....

Mccain is wayyy out of touch with reality and he cleary underestimates the intelligence of the American people.....with the exception being his gullable republican supporters who beleive anything he or Palin tells them without any proof to back up their ridiculous claims.

Furthermore, if your gonna try to attack Obama, atleast attack on the issues affecting people, NOT crap that happen when Obama was 8 damn yrs old...

What the hell does Ayers have to do with where my next paycheck or the roof over my head is coming from.

As far as im concerned, Ayers solely helped Obama get his name recognition. Obama had no control over what Ayers decided to do in his own agenda. Just like Mccain doesnt like being compared or linked to Bush, Obama should not be compared to Ayers. Its appears to be its much easier to link Mccain to Bush policies than it is to say that Obama was trouncing around with terrorist.

Where is the proof Palin???

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

shadow56 — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 19:34:17 GMT

The actual quote from the book is from page 261 and is as follows: "Of course, not all my conversations in immigrant communities follow this easy pattern. In the wake of 9/11, my meetings with Arab and Pakistani Americans, for example, have a more urgent quality, for the stories of detentions and FBI questioning and hard stares from neighbors have shaken their sense of security and belonging. They have been reminded that the history of immigration in this country has a dark underbelly; they need specific reassurances that their citizenship really means something, that America has learned the right lessons from the Japanese internments during World War II, and that I will stand with them should the political winds shift in an ugly direction."

lets print the whole quote Jim

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

sharenews — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 20:48:31 GMT

(Part 1 of 3) - OBAMAS CHOICES IN THE RADICAL PEOPLE HE SURROUNDED HIMSELF WITH OVER THE YEARS:

For those in doubt, here is just a sampling of Obamas long list of radical choices of people (unapologetic Washington and/or PLO terrorists, hateful anti-America pastors, radical spiritual mentors. . .one being like an uncle to him, etc). . . . All of which he felt comfortable surrounding himself among. . . starting out way back in his pre-teen days in Hawaii (Frank Marshal Davis) until he went off to college and then law school. Then afterwards, during his community organizer years, his campaigning years for Illinios Senator, etc. . . in his many years on the South Side of Chicago building relationships with an array of radical people and groups (e.g. ACORN) and people back then that included many that were part of corrupt Mayor Daley’s Chicago Political Machine):

* FRANK MARSHALL DAVIS (infamous pro-Soviet Communist Party member who was a mentor to Obama in his earlier days - from age 9 or 10 to 18 yrs old - until he left to go off to college). Davis sent Obama off to college and later Barack would admit that he attended socialist conferences and picked Marxist professors as his friends. http://newzeal.blogspot.com/2008/09/obamas-communist-mentor-frank-marshall.html

* RASHID KHALIDI (former PLO terrorist): http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2008/04/obama-bomber-ayers-partied-with-former.html

* BILL AYERS (Washington unapologetic terrorist): Colleague and friend of Barack and Michelle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV_h-XwchkY

* BERNADINE DORHN (Washington unapologetic terrorist): Bill Ayers wife and friend and colleague of Michelle (same law firm they worked at) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxRi4gfupi8

* LOUIS FARRAKHAN (radical Islam, Racist): Obamas church honored this guy with an award; he also endorsed Obama (albeit he denounced him).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOAi6PYHQNA

* MRS. LOUIS FARRAKHAN and Michelle are friends and each serve on the Board for the Rainbow Coalition / PUSH. http://minx.cc/?post=265769

(Mrs. Farrakhan is shown in the center in the first row)

* JAMES MEEKS (Illiniois Senator and Reverend) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ou1G0BIyu74

* REVEREND WRIGHT (former pastor, spiritual mentor, friend - like an uncle to me - for 20+ years) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M-kD0QdRJk

Obamas former church ( www.tucc.org)

* FATHER PHLEGER (another spiritual mentor and race-conscious, hateful pastor and friend of Obama for many yrs.): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvYICKJ3TI

(Continued in my post below)

(Continued from my post above )

(Part 2 of 3)

* KWAME KILPATRICK (Disgraced Detroit Mayor who resigned and subject to 4 mos. In Jail) - Obamas introduces his friend and colleague: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE6_zdeJ79E

Article: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2008/09/08/2008-09-08_kwame_kilpatrick_sees_flames_of_desire_a.html

* RAILA OGINGA ODINGA (Kenyan political radical) - Obamas cousin

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/01/obamas-oginga-o.html

* TONY REZKO (Convicted Felon /Extortion and Fraud) http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4111483&page=1

* NADHMI AUCHI (British billionaire who, according to one report, set up a variety of deals with Saddam Husseins regime prior to the 1991 Gulf War, and was one of the largest private shareholders in BNP Paribas, the bank that trafficked most of the funds involved in the UN Oil-For-Food scandal) http://www.beachwoodreporter.com/politics/obamas_auchi_problem.php

* AIHAM ASMARA ( Alsammarae was arrested by Iraqi authorities for bilking the coalition government out of some $650 million. He was sprung from prison under questionable circumstances in 2006 and escaped from Iraq, where he is still wanted for questioning with regard to major financial crimes.) http://www.worldnetdaily.com/?pageId=70972

* JODIE EVANS (One of Obamas presidential campaign bundlers who is a political ally to Venezuelan dictator, Hugo Chavez, and an advocate for Islamic militants.)

http://www.melaniemorgan.com/content/view/744/2/

* GEORGE SOROS (Billionaire; anti-America / anti-establishment radical) Major backer of moveon.org and Barack Obamas senate and presidential candidacy race) - Since 2003, the central focus of George Soros’ life has been on tearing down what he views as the FACIST TYRANNY of the United States. Through networks of non-governmental organizations, and his negative view of America, George Soros intends to knock America off its global pedestal. Soros' aim seems to be to make the U.S. just another client state easily controlled by the United Nations and other one-world groups where he has lots of friends. Soros additionally finances groups best described as helpful to terrorists.

http://ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=275181103776079

(Continued in my post below)

(Continued from my post above)

(Part 3 of 3)

OTHER - SAMPLING OF ENDORSERS OF OBAMA:

What triggers radicals, dictators, terrorist groups, et al, to endorse Barack Obama? He may denounce such endorsers, but the fact still remains that they totally support him. WHY?

* HAMAS (terrorist org):

http://www.cfr.org/publication/8968

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.printable&pageId=64097

* COMMUNIST PARTY OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA (CPUSA) - (Marxist-Leninist political party in the United States) http://www.aim.org/aim-column/communist-party-backs-obama/

* THE NEW BLACK PANTHERS (anti-Semitic black supremacist party)

http://bigheaddc.com/2008/03/19/new-black-panther-party-endorses-obama/

* FIDEL CASTRO (former Cuban President / Dictator) - Endorsed Obama

http://www.rpof.org/article.php?id=382

* MUAMMAR GADDAFI (Libyan political leader)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFvWqEwq2Yw

* KIM JONG-IL (NORTH KOREA) http://freekorea.us/2008/06/22/obama-gets-another-unwanted-endorsement/

* HUGO CHAVEZ (Venezuelan dictator) - Richardson gets another foreign endorsement for Obama: http://hotair.com/archives/2008/04/28/video-richardson-gets-another-foreign-endorsement-for-obama/

* CHARLES BARRON - (former Black Panther) - New York City Councilman (http://www.nypost.com/seven/11082007/postopinion/opedcolumnists/obamas_bad_news_buddies_862967.htm

* DONNIE MCCLURKIN (ex-gay gospel singer who has claimed that gays are trying to kill our children) http://www.nypost.com/seven/11082007/postopinion/opedcolumnists/obamas_bad_news_buddies_862967.htm

THERE IS MORE I COULD ADD. . . Why are controversial, radical people, organizations, etc. drawn to endorse Obama the way they do? ?

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

sharenews — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 21:11:50 GMT

Obama: Spread the wealth around . . . it is good for everybody!

Let's redistribute our wealth . . . TO THE WORLD!

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

(Part 1 of 3)

Obamas Global Tax Act

By INVESTORS BUSINESS DAILY - Posted Tuesday, July 29, 2008 4:20 PM PT

Election 2008: A plan by Barack Obama to REDISTRIBUTE AMERICAN WEALTH on a global level is moving forward in the Senate. It follows MARXIST THEOLOGY — from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

We are CITIZENS OF THE WORLD, Sen. Obama told thousands of nonvoting Germans during his recent tour (July 2008) of the Middle East and Europe. And if the GLOBAL POVERTY ACT (S. 2433) he has sponsored becomes law, which is almost certain if he wins in November, we are also going to be TAXPAYERS OF THE WORLD.

Speaking in Berlin, Obama said: While the 20th century taught us that we share a common destiny, the 21st has revealed a world more intertwined than at any time in human history.

What the 20th century really showed was a series of TOTALITARIAN THREATS - from fascism to Nazism to communism - defeated by the U.S. military. Hitlers Germany, Mussolinis Italy, Tojos Japan and the Soviet Union offered destinies we did not share.

Our destiny of peace and freedom through strength was not achieved by a trans-nationalist fantasy of buying the world a Coke and singing Kumbaya.

OBAMAS GLOBAL POVERTY ACT offers us a GLOBAL SOCIALIST DESTINY we do not want, one that CHALLENGES AMERICAS very SOVEREIGNTY. The former POST-RACIAL candidate obviously intends to be a post-national president.

A statement from Obamas office says: With billions of people living on just dollars a day around the world, global poverty remains one of the greatest challenges and tragedies the international community faces. It must be a priority of American foreign policy to commit to eliminating extreme poverty and ensuring every child has food, shelter and clean drinking water.

These are worthy goals, BUT note there is NO MENTION of spreading democracy, expanding free trade, PROMOTING ENTREPRENEURIAL CAPITALISM or RIDDING the world of DESPOTS who rule and ravage countries such as Zimbabwe and Sudan.

Obama would GIVE THEM ALL A FISH WITHOUT TEACHING THEM HOW TO FISH. Pledging to CUT GLOBAL POVERTY IN HALF ON THE BACKS OF U.S. TAXPAYERS is a ridiculous and impossible goal.

His legislation refers to the MILLENNIUM DEVELOPMENT GOAL, a phrase from a declaration adopted by the United Nations Millennium Assembly in 2000 and supported by President Clinton. It calls for the ERADICATION OF POVERTY in part through the REDISTRIBUTION (OF) WEALTH OF LAND and A FAIR DISTRIBUTION OF THE EARTHs resources. In other words: American resources.

It is A MANTRA OF LIBERALS that the U.S. is only a small portion of the worlds population yet consumes an unseemly portion of the planets supposedly finite resources. Never mentioned is the fact that Americas population, just 5% of the worlds total, also produces a stunning 27% of the worlds GDP . . . to the enormous benefit of other countries. Nonetheless, THEIR SOLUTION is to SIPHON OFF THE PRODUCT OF OUR FREE DEMOCRACY AND DISTRIBUTE IT.

WE ALREADY TRANSFER TOO MUCH NATIONAL WEALTH TO THE UNITED NATIONS and its busybody agencies. Obamas bill would FORCE (it will be mandatory) U.S. taxpayers to FORK OVER 0.7% OF OUR GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT EVERY YEAR to fund a global war on poverty, spending well above the $16.3 billion in global poverty aid the U.S. already spends.

Over a 13-year period, from 2002, when the U.N.s Financing for Development Conference was held, to the target year of 2015, when the U.S is expected to meet its part of the U.N. Millennium goals, we would be spending an ADDITIONAL $65 BILLION ANNUALLY for a total of $845 billion.

During a TIME OF ECONOMIC UNCERTAINTY, the plan would COST EVERY AMERICAN taxpayer around $2,500 !

Continued: Full article: http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=302222641317480

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

sharenews — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 21:42:21 GMT

Just a matter of clarity: Obamas Global Tax Act (article below I posted) is not 3 parts. The whole part of the exceprt is posted with a continued link posted at the end to that leads to the full (rest of) the article.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

sharenews — Sat, 18 Oct 2008 21:52:29 GMT

I think when you spread the wealth around, it is good for everybody!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85pKr5h4g4s&NR=1

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Ohio for McCain/Palin!!!! — Sun, 19 Oct 2008 13:07:07 GMT

Look, Obama has really been nasty in regards to Joe, the Plumber. Obama should not have been going door to door in suburban Ohio. Big mistake, he has placed poor Joe in the victim position. I would like to know more about Grandma Obama. The liberal media and Fox now need to go after Grandma Obama! I WANT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT GRANDMA OBAMA in Hawaii!

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

ReadyForRealChange — Sun, 19 Oct 2008 14:01:35 GMT

I think I've missed something, what is there about Grandma that we need to know ? Who cares ?

And by the way , It would be grandma Dunham regardless, Baracks paternal grandmother is from Kenya.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

ReadyForRealChange — Sun, 19 Oct 2008 14:06:15 GMT

Um... Nowfortruth... you might want to read this

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jxjAsAV-4bVaxvkleyrVdeKz2cmgD93T13EO0

the bottom line is that once a registration has been submitted, the organization HAS to turn it in. Otherwise we would see private organizations picking and choosing voters all over the place... ACORN actually did flag questionable registrations...

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

fakejoe — Sun, 19 Oct 2008 19:29:09 GMT

http://fakejoe.blogspot.com/

Yeah, there are more important things than wondering about my license, unpaid taxes and stuff I like. Everyone is making money off my 15 minutes of fame except me.

P.S. Thanks for clearing things up about my taxes. I wish Obama was that clear.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Nins — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 17:33:43 GMT

Here's an article in The New Yorker that sums it all up: taxation, socialism and Joe the Plumber all taken in context, instead of out of context (the way many bloggers on this website tend to interpret things).

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2008/10/27/081027taco_talk_coll

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

dorf — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 19:16:59 GMT

This is another great article - bty someone respected worldwide ( juast won a Nobel prize):

The Real Plumbers of Ohio

By PAUL KRUGMAN

Published: October 20, 2008

Forty years ago, Richard Nixon made a remarkable marketing discovery. By exploiting America’s divisions — divisions over Vietnam, divisions over cultural change and, above all, racial divisions — he was able to reinvent the Republican brand. The party of plutocrats was repackaged as the party of the “silent majority,” the regular guys — white guys, it went without saying — who didn’t like the social changes taking place.

It was a winning formula. And the great thing was that the new packaging didn’t require any change in the product’s actual contents — in fact, the G.O.P. was able to keep winning elections even as its actual policies became more pro-plutocrat, and less favorable to working Americans, than ever.

John McCain’s strategy, in this final stretch, is based on the belief that the old formula still has life in it.

Thus we have Sarah Palin expressing her joy at visiting the “pro-America” parts of the country — yep, we’re all traitors here in central New Jersey. Meanwhile we’ve got Mr. McCain making Samuel J. Wurzelbacher, a k a Joe the Plumber — who had confronted Barack Obama on the campaign trail, alleging that the Democratic candidate would raise his taxes — the centerpiece of his attack on Mr. Obama’s economic proposals.

And when it turned out that the right’s new icon had a few issues, like not being licensed and comparing Mr. Obama to Sammy Davis Jr., conservatives played victim: see how much those snooty elitists hate the common man?

But what’s really happening to the plumbers of Ohio, and to working Americans in general?

First of all, they aren’t making a lot of money. You may recall that in one of the early Democratic debates Charles Gibson of ABC suggested that $200,000 a year was a middle-class income. Tell that to Ohio plumbers: according to the May 2007 occupational earnings report from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, the average annual income of “plumbers, pipefitters and steamfitters” in Ohio was $47,930.

Second, their real incomes have stagnated or fallen, even in supposedly good years. The Bush administration assured us that the economy was booming in 2007 — but the average Ohio plumber’s income in that 2007 report was only 15.5 percent higher than in the 2000 report, not enough to keep up with the 17.7 percent rise in consumer prices in the Midwest. As Ohio plumbers went, so went the nation: median household income, adjusted for inflation, was lower in 2007 than it had been in 2000.

Third, Ohio plumbers have been having growing trouble getting health insurance, especially if, like many craftsmen, they work for small firms. According to the Kaiser Family Foundation, in 2007 only 45 percent of companies with fewer than 10 employees offered health benefits, down from 57 percent in 2000.

And bear in mind that all these data pertain to 2007 — which was as good as it got in recent years. Now that the “Bush boom,” such as it was, is over, we can see that it achieved a dismal distinction: for the first time on record, an economic expansion failed to raise most Americans’ incomes above their previous peak.

Since then, of course, things have gone rapidly downhill, as millions of working Americans have lost their jobs and their homes. And all indicators suggest that things will get much worse in the months and years ahead.

So what does all this say about the candidates? Who’s really standing up for Ohio’s plumbers?

Mr. McCain claims that Mr. Obama’s policies would lead to economic disaster. But President Bush’s policies have already led to disaster — and whatever he may say, Mr. McCain proposes continuing Mr. Bush’s policies in all essential respects, and he shares Mr. Bush’s anti-government, anti-regulation philosophy.

What about the claim, based on Joe the Plumber’s complaint, that ordinary working Americans would face higher taxes under Mr. Obama? Well, Mr. Obama proposes raising rates on only the top two income tax brackets — and the second-highest bracket for a head of household starts at an income, after deductions, of $182,400 a year.

Maybe there are plumbers out there who earn that much, or who would end up suffering from Mr. Obama’s proposed modest increases in taxes on dividends and capital gains — America is a big country, and there’s probably a high-income plumber with a huge stock market portfolio out there somewhere. But the typical plumber would pay lower, not higher, taxes under an Obama administration, and would have a much better chance of getting health insurance.

I don’t want to suggest that everyone would be better off under the Obama tax plan. Joe the plumber would almost certainly be better off, but Richie the hedge fund manager would take a serious hit.

But that’s the point. Whatever today’s G.O.P. is, it isn’t the party of working Americans.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Nowforthetruth — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 22:09:27 GMT

Look and listen for yourself. Hear Obama in his own words discusses his links to both ACORN and the mortgage meltdown, and praises bundling and securitizing mortgages by banks as a means to float loans to the poor. Never mind the link commentators point of view, just listen to what Obama says in his own words. A picture is worth a thousand words. Maybe more in the case of the last half of the second link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vJcVgJhNaU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr1M1T2Y314&feature=related

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Nowforthetruth — Mon, 20 Oct 2008 22:09:43 GMT

Who "Joe the plumber" may be is not the issue, though it's easy to see why the Dems want it to be. That's because the real issue is what Obama's comments to him revealed about Obama. In the exchange with "Joe the plumber" we find out that Obama really is as radical as his early political acquaintances, Davis, Ayers, Wright, etc., and that he is into the failed economic policy of wealth redistribution. Obama's tax and spending plans alone would be bad enough, but add Reid and Pelosi to the mix, with the three of them controlling both houses of Congress and the executive branch without any effective restraint, and you have something that should causes concern even among moderate Democrats.

See Wall Street Journal: A Liberal Supermajority:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122420205889842989.html

And whether McCain won or lost the third debate is also not relevant. He succeeded in the first half hour to plant the seeds of a Reagan style wipeout. Reputable historians and economists overwhelmingly agree that the taxation imposed by Hoover and FDR, and the "stimulus" spending and public works programs of FDR, actually deepened and prolonged the Great Depression. It was the production demands of WWII that got the economy going again. And when the war was over, the economy promptly went into recession.

See e.g. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/03/opinion/main4499465.shtml

And

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx

Point is, Obama's programs are to tax, and it does not really matter who he taxes, those taxes are going to be passed through the economy. He has to tax, because it is they only way he can pay for his massive social engineering experiments. Any first year economics student knows that taxation is a tool used to contract an economy experiencing inflation, because it reduces demand by reducing the amount of money individuals and businesses have to spend. It is contractionary, which is exactly what you do not want to do when the problem is that the economy is contracting already into recession. Like Hoover and FDR, Obama's plans will only make it worse for longer.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

krohn2 — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:47:27 GMT

Obama, the excuses are wearing thin. what excuse do you have for this one?:

http://www.againstobama.com/2008/10/obama-praised-searing-and-timely-book-by-ayers/

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

drjalee52 — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 01:01:15 GMT

Joe the fake plumber only represents a person who is miss-guided and mislead believes that the GOP is concerned with the working class. This guy may be an idiot. Obama will help he and his family more than he can imagine. This may have a hidden race card. He can not see $700 plus dollars he has a real problem. Even if he had a business given his pattern of back taxes and no licenses this will only hurt him. He may be embarrassed to show his face to do anything.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

LostDemocracy — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 01:19:17 GMT

Joe the Plumber said on Hanity tonight, “Obama’s tax policies are breading mediocrity”.

He understands that if you tax people too much they will stop working hard. Or they might switch to cash economy. Either way tax revenues go down.

Joe the Plumber gets it, Obama does not.

In the Soviet Union people used to say, “YOU PRETEND YOU PAY, I PRETEND I WORK”, Joe understand, Obama doesn’t

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

sharenews — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 03:48:53 GMT

All 'Joe the plumber' did was ask a question of a potential future leader of this country. That being 'you are going to tax me, arent you' (paraphrased). . . basing it on . . .that he wants to further enhance his career . . with a goal of owning a small business. Its Obamas own fault as to how he responded to the plumbers question (e.g. especially the comment BO said: ' I think spreading the wealth around is good for everybody'). Thanks to 'Joe the plumber' having his dream of owning a small business and bringing up this taxation question, he has brilliantly brought the real impact of Obamas Tax Plan to the forefront and to create a sympathetic ear among all of the other average Joes out there who either already have (or want to establish) a small business of their own. So what does Obama do in response to McCain taking THAT ball and running with it (which was so elequently brought up and expounded on in the media)? He embraces Saul Alinsky's radical philosophy of rules and tactics and proceeds to personally attack an American citizen who just asked him a question (what the . . . ?). It is something out Alinsky's playbook which Obama learned, practiced and taught to students - many of whom joined ACORN back then and supported - and continues to support - Obama in his political efforts):

I think that Radical Rule (#12) very apply applies to being used right now to majorly discredit an innocent citizen all because he asked a question that exposed Obamas tax plan for what it is by Obama blatantly making that ringing statement: 'I believe that spreading the wealth around is good for everybody'. . . and for this reason, Joe has become his target:

SAUL ALINSKY PHILOSOPHY - Radical Rules 1 - 12 (want to know more, google this guy)

RADICAL RULE 1: Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have. Power is derived from 2 main sources - money and people. Have-Nots must build power from flesh and blood. (These are two things of which there is a plentiful supply. Government and corporations always have a difficult time appealing to people, and usually do so almost exclusively with economic arguments.)

RADICAL RULE 2: Never go outside the expertise of your people. It results in confusion, fear and retreat. Feeling secure adds to the backbone of anyone. (Organizations under attack wonder why radicals don't address the "real" issues. This is why. They avoid things with which they have no knowledge.)

RADICAL RULE 3: Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy. Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.)

RADICAL RULE 4: Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules. If the rule is that every letter gets a reply, send 30,000 letters. You can kill them with this because no one can possibly obey all of their own rules. (This is a serious rule. The besieged entity's very credibility and reputation is at stake, because if activists catch it lying or not living up to its commitments, they can continue to chip away at the damage.)

RADICAL RULE 5: Ridicule is man's most potent weapon: There is no defense. It's irrational. It's infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions. (Pretty crude, rude and mean, huh? They want to create anger and fear.)

RADICAL RULE 6: A good tactic is one your people enjoy. They'll keep doing it without urging and come back to do more. They're doing their thing, and will even suggest better ones. (Radical activists, in this sense, are no different that any other human being. We all avoid "un-fun" activities, and but we revel at and enjoy the ones that work and bring results.)

RADICAL RULE 7: A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag. Don't become old news. (Even radical activists get bored. So to keep them excited and involved, organizers are constantly coming up with new tactics.)

RADICAL RULE 8: Keep the pressure on. Never let up. Keep trying new things to keep the opposition off balance. As the opposition masters one approach, hit them from the flank with something new. (Attack, attack, attack from all sides, never giving the reeling organization a chance to rest, regroup, recover and re-strategize.)

RADICAL RULE 9: The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself. Imagination and ego can dream up many more consequences than any activist. (Perception is reality. Large organizations always prepare a worst-case scenario, something that may be furthest from the activists minds. The upshot is that the organization will expend enormous time and energy, creating in its own collective mind the direst of conclusions. The possibilities can easily poison the mind and result in demoralization.)

RADICAL RULE 10: If you push a negative hard enough, it will push through and become a positive. Violence from the other side can win the public to your side because the public sympathizes with the underdog. (Unions used this tactic. Peaceful [albeit loud] demonstrations during the heyday of unions in the early to mid-20th Century incurred management's wrath, often in the form of violence that eventually brought public sympathy to their side.)

RADICAL RULE 11: The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative. Never let the enemy score points because you're caught without a solution to the problem. (Old saw: If you are not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Activist organizations have an agenda, and their strategy is to hold a place at the table, to be given a forum to wield their power. So, they have to have a compromise solution.)

RADICAL RULE 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel, but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

SAUL ALINSKY's PHILOSOPHY includes: RADICAL TACTICS used by Obama, his camp, supporters and radical groups like ACORN going back to Obamas community organizers days, and through his campaigning years that has got him to where he is now:

Saul Alinsky’s philosophy which Obama taught to students in the Chicago community for radical organizing initiatives used over the years to 1. obtain multiple voter registration signatures by individuals, 2. to intimidate local banks to approve risky mortgage loans for people who cant afford homes, and 3. To work with democratic lobbyists in Washington D.C to lower the standards of Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac which helped contribute to the financial meltdown we are experiencing now:

* Personal ATTACKS

* Playing the RACE card

* Trying to play the GUILT trip

* Trying to make people feel GUILTY ABOUT SLAVERY when they had nothing to do with it

* NAME-CALLING. When people that DO NOT AGREE with them , they call them e.g. STUPID, IDIOT, etc..

* . . . and more.

ALL of the above things come right out of Saul Alinskys PLAYBOOK that he wrote: Rules for Radicals.

Want to know more? Google: Saul Alinsky and Obama.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

krohn2 — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 04:17:32 GMT

This is so true about how the election is already bought and paid for:

http://www.againstobama.com/2008/10/what-is-it-that-barack-obama-knows-that-the-rest-of-us-don%E2%80%99t/#comment-1929

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Clatech — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 12:51:43 GMT

The way the liberal media went after Joe Wurzelbacher is a good indication of what average Americans have to look forward to in a Barrack Obama administration (God forbid). Access will be based on positive contributions to the Obama persona and Hollywood status!

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Mariann Pepitone — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 20:41:31 GMT

I read the above statements and Obama said he would raise taxes on those making $250,000 and up which means that if Joe's business made over $250,000 his taxes would increase. McCain said he would not raise the tax meaning Joe would lose out on Obama's tax plan. What it said in these paragraphs Joe would benefit by Obama's tax plan. That is different than what Obama originally said that's why Joe said he was a socialist. Obama wants to spread the wealth around taking the increased tax money and giving a check to those that are making a small income. I do not agree with that. I don't want to support other people. If he wants to spread the wealth around spread it to people on social security or SSI. There are people on social security that don't have get big checks.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Mariann Pepitone — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:08:17 GMT

Clatech: You are so right in you theory. Obama is not the candidate appearing on the platform that he has the people believing. He is going to be the opposite and do the opposite of what he says. Obama is using the public to get elected because he only wants to make history first. Secondly he hasn't got the experience or foreign policy to run this country. The media kept bring up the Bradley Effect and that's when Powell decide to jump on Obama's bandwagon and endorse him. Powell did it because of race. Powell did not intend to endorse either candidate but feared McCain could win over Obama. And I believe this race is not over yet. It could change.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

ALLEAS — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:14:53 GMT

THE MIDDLE CLASS SHOULD BE VERY FRIGHTENED BY THE POSSIBILITY OF A McCAIN PRESIDENCY. MY TAX RATE WILL SKYROCKET BECAUSE McCAIN WILL TAX MY EMPLOYER BASED HEALTH CARE BENEFITS. I WILL END UP PAYING TAXES ON AN EXTRA $14,680 PER YEAR. UNDER OBAMA'S PLAN I WILL GET A TAX CUT. I HAVE ALWAYS VOTED DEMOCRAT BECAUSE OF POCKETBOOK ISSUES LIKE THESE. McCAIN'S TAX PLAN IS THE GOOD OLD "BAIT AND SWITCH" TACTIC THAT SO MANY UNINFORMED VOTERS FALL FOR. THE EMPLOYER BASED HEALTH CARE WILL IMPLODE UNDER McCAIN'S PLAN.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

tastytart — Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:52:00 GMT

Dear Stumpers,

Once again we are lost in a sea of talking points. The only part of any of this that we need concern ourselves with is Candidate Obama "wants to spread the wealth around." Now if the Grand Mr. O wants to spread "his" wealth around he has that constitutional right. Other than that this concept is so "NOT AMERICAN." According to a poll I saw yesterday 43% of Americans believe that spreading the wealt around is a good thing. Tsk, tsk, bad form America. I would like to know from which socio-economic group this 43% hails from. Could be people that have enough excess that in the throws of an ego driven orgasmic display of generosity say "HEY, I'll pick of that guys tab too!" Or is it the entitlement crowd that makes up the majority of this statistic? I don't know much about polls, I don't make decisions based on polling though I know I'm goofy enough that I should always get a second opinion. Andrew the last time I read your blog someone was going down your long list of acedemic and professional achievements and I must say that I was impressed in part because of your youthful appearence. If I may be so bold as to suggest that somewhere sometime you write an article with some original thoughts and insights instead of the ame old boaring mundane talking points that we are subjected to by every mainstream media outlet known to man/woman kind. I now you can do it, and your readers too! Genuine, independant thought, what a concept, "it's so American!" With that I quit and I'll take another 24.

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Nowforthetruth — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 02:50:07 GMT

See: http://www.newsweek.com/id/164972

Stating that Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act wasn't what caused the meltdown, and noting that "economists on both sides of the political spectrum have suggested that the act has probably made the crisis less severe than it might otherwise have been."

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

susan hodos — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 05:03:26 GMT

It sounds like Mr. Meacham's article is written to assuage his own fear of the "times that are a changin'".

We have all seen the pendulum swing and the mood of the country ebb and flow with both parties. The one dramatic shift that has increasingly changed is the proliferation of chronic distrust of government. If Mr. Obama wins, it will be because he is new to this broken system, and has not been involved in any corruption or cronyism, or any of the ugliness inherent in our two party system. I think that many of us want a fresh break from the past, and along with that will come change.(that no one is ever truly comfortable with)

The fact is however that the American psyche( Individually and collectively)is drowning from the ill effects of capitalism gone awry .

I'm sure we will not return to the days of where trust was implicit, or when business deals were done with a handshake. However, I believe that if our trust is not restored to some degree, whoever wins will have to deal with an angrier public than the people who survived the Great Depression, when left wing sentiments and politics were at an all time high. Thus, I am not in agreement with the idea that our country is generally or statically right of center. Innocent citizens have been victimized , as they were in 1929, and have been robbed of a fair portion of their life savings. This was legitimized by the present administration's instructing the Security and Exchange Commission to stand back and allow corporate greed to rule.

I think voters can no longer afford to have political discussions and fall back on old family loyalties to one party, or another. I believe we will be voting based on our wallets, our distrust, and the loss of American dream.

Susan Hodos, Montclair, New Jersey

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

susan hodos — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 05:03:33 GMT

It sounds like Mr. Meacham's article is written to assuage his own fear of the "times that are a changin'".

The fact is however that the American psyche( Individually and collectively)is drowning from the ill effects of capitalism gone awry .

Susan Hodos, Montclair, New Jersey

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

krohn2 — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 20:59:29 GMT

FactCheck.Org is owned by the Annenberg group of Chicago! Talk about a conflict of interest! And Obama has been telling people on the trail to check out the site to verify his opponents claims. Funny, every time that he endorsed something, it turns out to be a part of his spin machine! Like he raised objections in the primaries when Indiana required photo I.D. to vote. He Protested that It took away people's right to vote! I

knew then and there that he was up to no good! America, wake up from the MASS HYPNOSIS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWTs1YyhFRg&feature=related

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

sharenews — Wed, 22 Oct 2008 22:25:20 GMT

Thanks, Krohn2, for posting that professionally made documentary which interviewed Philip J. Berg, a well-known and respected attorney in PA. For those who are not aware, he is in the processes of suing Obama, the DNC and the FEC for hiding the fact that he is not a natural born U.S. Citizen (making him ineligible for the presidency) and the documentary goes into much detail as to WHY he believes this is the case.

Click on the youtube link below in krohn2 link. Worth seeing!

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Nowforthetruth — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:12:55 GMT

Obama in this video, addressing his work with ACORN litigation relating to the community reinvestment act and the failure of Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, as they relate to the current real estate and financial crisis, states that, and I quote:

"Subprime lending started out as a good idea, helping Americans buy homes who previously could not afford to. Financial institutions created new financial instruments that could securitize these loans, slice them into finer and finer risk categories, and spread them out among investors and around the country, as well as around the world. In theory, this should have allowed mortgage lending to be less risky, and more diversified."

He further states:

“"The original idea was a good one, which was, lets see if we can distribute risk more broadly, and make it easier to provide loans to people who otherwise might not be able to get one."

Listen for yourself. You cannot dispute the mans on words recorded live:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr1M1T2Y314&feature=related

Obama in this second video is campaigning at a convention of Acorn and I believe two other "Community Activist" organizations. Ask if he will be their ally if he becomes President, Obama says, quote:

“Yes, but let me say that before I even get inaugurated, during the transition we are going to be calling all of you in to help us shape the agenda. We’re going to be having meetings all across the country with community organizations so that you have input into the agenda for the next presidency of the United States of America.

See and hear it for yourself. Obama promised that Acorn and other groups like it will setting his agenda if elected:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vJcVgJhNaU

re: Why 'Joe the Plumber' Matters

Nowforthetruth — Sun, 26 Oct 2008 00:46:16 GMT

"Ohio officials are investigating whether government computer systems were illegally accessed to acquire personal information about "Joe the Plumber," The Columbus Dispatch reports.

Public records requested by The Dispatch reveal information on Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher's driver's license or his sport-utility vehicle was pulled from the Ohio Bureau of Motor Vehicles database.

Information on Wurzelbacher was obtained on Oct. 17 through an account used by the Cuyahoga County Child Support Enforcement Agency in Cleveland, The Dispatch reported records as showing.

Access to such information from BMV computers is restricted to legitimate law enforcement and government business.

The Dispatch reported that information on Wurzelbacher was accessed by accounts assigned to the office of Ohio Attorney General Nancy H. Rogers, the Cuyahoga County Child Support Enforcement Agency and the Toledo Police Department."

http://www.dispatch.com/live/content/local_news/stories/2008/10/24/joe.html?sid=101